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  1. #26
    Senior Member Lenton58's Avatar
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    A $125 powdercoat could be cheaper, faster, and protect the frame better.
    I agree with this entirely, the idea being that perhaps our friend should just save up the cash for such a powder-coat if that price is available for him. (BTW, it isn't for me here in Japan. The frame has to be sent south — from Sendai to Osaka — and the cost is more expensive than spray ... over US$200! ... the reason I've repaired paint rather that replace it.) On the other hand, if he understands that intensive labor and very shrewd purchases of materials can produce the beautiful result of bikenut's project, he has informed options. (Congrats Andy — fantastic ... and what is the frame, and is it an SS/fixed bike?)

    So tmoneygetpaid, there are the options from some guys who know (better than I).
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  2. #27
    No, your OTHER left!! bikenut2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenton58 View Post
    (Congrats Andy — fantastic ... and what is the frame, and is it an SS/fixed bike?)
    Its a 88 schwinn circuit (columbus tretubi) , it will have 14 speeds, i'm just not done with it yet. Spray bombing is not for everyone, but it works for me, I've restored several cars over the last almost 20 years and its the ticket for refinishing small parts and even bigger stuff like engine blocks...no reason why you can't do a bike frame. I can see where someone who didnt have alot of experience could mess it up...and thats probably a big part of the reason "rattle canning" is such a dirty word. If its done with care and done right, a good finish can be achieved.

    would i rattle can a rare or valuable bike? Heck no, but i dont think those kind of bikes are what this thread is about

    Thanks for the kind words
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  3. #28
    FBoD Member at Large khatfull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    i disagree with all this.
    Always welcome to do so!

    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    everyone has some sandpaper, green scotchbrite, etc. laying around. a couple brass/steel brushes will get the rust off in the hard to reach places.
    Maybe, maybe not...

    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    keep the guides! they aren't that bad, plus they uhhh have a purpose!
    I think they're that bad and you never know how rust might have migrated underneath them. If the OP wants to just make the bike look good sure....if he's looking to have it long term and not have recurring rust problems, they should probably go.

    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    you can get white rustoleum epoxy paint for like $4/can at home depot. you don't have to primer and you don't have to clear (unless you want). you could use 2 cans, and it would be great! or you can can use 3 cans, sand/wetsand, and 1 can of clear and it'll be even more awesomer. for $16.
    I still maintain there'd be more of a material cost: drop cloths, tape for masking if needed, not everyone has high grit wet/dry hanging around. Compare that to a $100-$125 powdercoat and there's really no comparison. Also, how durable will a rattle can job be on a commuter in Boston?

    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    im just not sure how great a "tri" bike will be for a commuter in boston, but the OP knows better than me. you can probably only fit 700x25s in there.
    Sure, but he'll be a FAST commuter

  4. #29
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    The Trek Tri Series in my LBS has a lot more clearance than you'd expect on a triathlon frame. If I recall correctly, it seemed to have room for 37mm fenders and 28mm tires. I would definitely have that bike media blasted and properly painted or powdercoated. I believe the bike in the OP is not an '85 model, but rather an '86.
    Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 02-06-11 at 09:13 AM.
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  5. #30
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    Yep, quite right. The clearance is pretty good-- the framebuilder I got it from said it could definitely fit raceblades and 32mm tires.

    A bunch of people commented on rust-- if I go the diy route, I'm going to strip paint then bathe it in oxalic acid to remove internal and external rust after I strip it.

    The costs for these options (rattle can vs. powdercoat) are still pretty different.

    Oxalic acid was $8
    Paint stripper will be $10
    Rustoleum rattle can metal primer $4
    Rustoleum polyurethane finish $8
    Sand paper $5
    Tape $5

    Total $40

    Versus $125. That's significant. The powdercoat option is pretty appealing, and I really like the frame, but I can't really justify spending the $. Maybe I'll hang onto it till the spring and see if I have more disposable moneys.

    I would do it outside above my apt's back porch, where I won't need any drop cloths

  6. #31
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    From the pics, the rust seems isolated to the top tube and BB area (most nasty). If so, the job may be less tasking.
    Make sure to pick up Jasco paint stripper, not the eco stuff. It's nasty, but works like a charm. Oh, factor in lot's of nitrile gloves, small plastic containers, small brushes and scrapers, rust converter, kiddie pool or heavy MIL plastic sheet....that's what I can think of the top of my head.
    IMO, you'll need minimum two cans of each if you're going rattle can route.
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  7. #32
    Senior Member irwin7638's Avatar
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    Being the experience owner of a Trek 560 from that period, I will have to say the situation is dire! It should be carefully packed and sent directly to me for proper disposition.

    Have it stripped,powdercoated, detail it however you want over the powder and hope your grand kids like it.
    Marc
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  8. #33
    No, your OTHER left!! bikenut2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmoneygetpaid View Post
    Yep, quite right. The clearance is pretty good-- the framebuilder I got it from said it could definitely fit raceblades and 32mm tires.

    A bunch of people commented on rust-- if I go the diy route, I'm going to strip paint then bathe it in oxalic acid to remove internal and external rust after I strip it.

    The costs for these options (rattle can vs. powdercoat) are still pretty different.

    Oxalic acid was $8
    Paint stripper will be $10
    Rustoleum rattle can metal primer $4
    Rustoleum polyurethane finish $8
    Sand paper $5
    Tape $5

    Total $40

    Versus $125. That's significant. The powdercoat option is pretty appealing, and I really like the frame, but I can't really justify spending the $. Maybe I'll hang onto it till the spring and see if I have more disposable moneys.

    I would do it outside above my apt's back porch, where I won't need any drop cloths

    One thing about it, if you decide to do it all yourself, you can be extra proud of it. And there is a great feeling in knowing that you did.

    If you do decide to do it, read everything you can about the process, there was a great thread here awhile back about a 71 Atala frame, just take your time and don't rush anything.

    There's no debate about the virtues of a good PC job...its better. But, its all about what you want personally. I'd be very hesitant about handing my frame over to someone i don't know.

    Good luck to you with whatever you decide. Oh, and don't forget brush painting, i have seen some amazing work done that way. Might be worth investigating.

    andy
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  9. #34
    Senior Member Thumpic's Avatar
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    if you factor any labor costs for your time; you'll NEVER beat powder coating.........and you cannot touch the quality with any type of DIY home finishing.

    my 2 cents.......
    Thumpic....

    Green is the new "CHEAP"

  10. #35
    )) <> (( illwafer's Avatar
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    one last thing i will add.

    there's virtually no risk in painting it yourself. if it turns our horribly, oh well start saving for a professional to do it...or just try it again!

    on the other hand, i've seen plenty of bad powdercoat jobs, and rattlecanning can easily be as nice as a pc. not to mention they may sandblast or powder your threads, use a coarse sand, etc.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Lenton58's Avatar
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    OK — more good advice — all of it right even if it varies. But as I said — DIY? — yer gonna work your ass off! As for the cable guides? ... rat tail file and a steel scrapper. Know how to sharpen it or sacrifice an old wood chisel and have an emery stone at hand. Sandpaper? ... niet, non, no, dewa imasen, nada, damei desu! Wet and dry emery cloth. And you will need from #60 to #800~1000. The coarse you need for the rust and roughing out the pitting. The fine you need for rubbing the finish coats and smoothing the metal before priming. Emery paper/cloth maybe cheap over there. It isn't here — damn it!
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  12. #37
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    So you're going to paint it either inside your apartment or on a porch? I think your $40 estimate is low, but that doesn't matter when you factor in all the time you're going to spend getting a lesser job by your DIY option. I say put it in the closet until you can afford a powdercoat job.
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  13. #38
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    I was thinking of sand blasting to remove the paint and external rust and OA baithing to get the internal rust. And powder coating because its inexpensive.
    You actually don't want sand blasting, the problem with sand is it's harder then the steel and metal bicycle tubes very very little excess thickness, you want to preserve as much of the metal you can, so a material that is harder then the paint, but softer then the steel underneath is the ideal. Probably the ideal is to use OA to clean up the rust, then media blasting to get rid of all the paint. This will allow you to repair the braze ons. The iffy part of this is going to be that, bottom bracket shell, whether the threads in the shell can be cleaned up or whether the shell will need replacing.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Lenton58's Avatar
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    The iffy part of this is going to be that, bottom bracket shell, whether the threads in the shell can be cleaned up or whether the shell will need replacing.
    The one side shown looks to have a pretty cheezy outer thread, but once in a few mm, it looks OK to me. But refacing is unavoidable. That would cut a tad off the ruined threads too. A tad shorter spinde and .... maybe OK.

    I did some industrial sand blasting back when I was a young mill-slave. I know what you mean about cutting metal. But if he can locate a shop that bead blasts parts for race cars, he might at least dig out the rust and be in more sensitive hands. I'd remove the paint itself chemically and then take it to a media blaster. They'll probably be more interested in a stripped item anyway.
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  15. #40
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    1st post here but cut me some slack I've been around metal working, machine shops and the like my entire life. The rust must be neutralized or eliminated as it will continue to progress and eat the metal. I agree with removing the existing cable guides after the paint has been removed. My choice would be to use glass beads in lieu of sand, it will be easier to control and the equipment is a little more user friendly. Check in your area with Engine Machine shops, as they generally have a blasting cabinet that will easily accomodate a frame and its related components. Then appraise the condition of the cable guides after they are void of paint. If warranted, remove them and have replacements brazed on by qualified individual. Possibly use clamp on type or get real trick and run the cable within the top tube. For my $$ powdercoating is not as bright and does not have the appearance of good automotive paint. Here is a tip... find an Auto Body supply shop nearby, they have more colors than you can shake a stick at. They will be able to recommend someone that does small jobs, used car lots also have guys that come around to fix door dings scratches etc on location, they could do this job in your driveway while you watch and after curing the paint is hard and durable, unlike that of a spray can, because it hardens and cures chemically which the EPA loves. I have a Paramount I had done this way MANY years ago and it has held up very well.

  16. #41
    Senior Member Lenton58's Avatar
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    1st post here but cut me some slack I've been around metal working ...
    I think you are right on center! Thing is, the man does not have the cash for this sort of treatment. So, some of us are saying, "Wait until you get some more money and do it right." I thoroughly agree with glass bead blasting! I've seen the results on race cars and motorcycles — years ago mind you.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenton58 View Post
    OK — more good advice — all of it right even if it varies. But as I said — DIY? — yer gonna work your ass off! As for the cable guides? ... rat tail file and a steel scrapper. Know how to sharpen it or sacrifice an old wood chisel and have an emery stone at hand. Sandpaper? ... niet, non, no, dewa imasen, nada, damei desu! Wet and dry emery cloth. And you will need from #60 to #800~1000. The coarse you need for the rust and roughing out the pitting. The fine you need for rubbing the finish coats and smoothing the metal before priming. Emery paper/cloth maybe cheap over there. It isn't here — damn it!
    Yeah, I wanted to ask more about sanding/ emery-ing. Where can I expect to find a wide variety of finenesses of emery cloth? I went to home depot and the local hardware store and they only had these variety packs that went from like 60-150, I think. I live in a city so there are plenty of auto shops, hobby stores, etc. if any of those types of places would be a good place to look for the needed variety.

    Thanks all, and sorry this project seems to be upsetting to you, Colonel! I do figure that if I totally botch this, I'll just put it back in the closet and save for a pc. Figured I might try to save myself some money, and I don't mind spending time working on bike stuff, it's rewarding for me.

  18. #43
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmoneygetpaid View Post
    Thanks all, and sorry this project seems to be upsetting to you, Colonel!
    I don't get upset about my own builds, let alone anyone else's. Have fun with your bike. Spray painting your bike in your apartment or anywhere with wind is dumb, though.
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  19. #44
    Senior Member
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    First time I've been flamed on a bike forum.

  20. #45
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    I think you're reading into something I haven't written, tmoneygetpaid. I sincerely wish you to have fun with your bike. I also believe it's dumb to spray paint a bike inside an apartment. That's all I'm saying. I don't know what it is to "flame" someone. I was just offering some advice, albeit not in the most sensitive way apparently. I won't post in your thread again.

    Happy riding!
    Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 02-10-11 at 03:27 PM.
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  21. #46
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    Alright, then, if I read too much into your posts, I apologize.

    Those are the only two spaces I have access to and can work on projects like this on, as someone who lives in a city where space is costly and coveted. Unless there's an alternative I am missing. Maybe I could ask my landlord about using the basement for an evening?

    And how much sanding am I to do at each stage, as well? Ie how will I know I've sanded enough?

    And will the rustoleum "stops rust crystal clear" enamel work as a clear coat? The can says aluminum, brass, and something else, but doesn't specifically say steel.

    Thanks again.

  22. #47
    Senior Member Lenton58's Avatar
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    When you cannot see a speck of corrosion, then you have sanded enough. Where there is no corrosion — where you can be damned sure there is no corrosion — you can go down to whatever produces a satiny smooth finish. That may leave you with part of the top coat, or it may leave the original primer. You may have chips or deep scratches to deal with. Who doesn't?

    Again, be sure there is no corrrosion underneath. Chips can be sanded out, but the whole area has to come down so it is looking flat. Another option is to use body shop fairing putty and fill in chips, voids and scratches.

    Some people may disagree with this approach — that is not going down to bare metal, but barring corrosion, usually the best undercoat you are going to have is what the factory applied. As they say, trust me!

    Now the reason people are going on about media blasting is because it looks like a hellish job to get all the rust out. Got a bench grinder with a wire brush? An electric drill you can chuck wire a brush onto? What about a Dremel tool. That will help. Use safety glasses!

    And don't forget what I said about about flushing the crud out of the inside of the frame etc. After you paint it you can stuff loads of yucky grease in there. Or you can wade through the zillion pages in the threads that deal with interior rust treatment.

    Once you get ALL the corrosion out of the BB shell, you need to take the frame to a bike mechanic who knows what he/she is doing. The BB shell needs to be refaced given all the corrosion in the area, and the threads need to be chased. There are ways to cheat this, but the best way is the best way. The serious tools needed to do this cost a serious fortune, so don't even think about buying them.

    The outer part of the shell is still gonna look like the surface of the moon, so you will need some fairing putty — or perhaps even a dab of "bondo".

    So from the way you say things, you gottta problem for spraying. I understand. I hada shop for years, and then my reward for having to leave my country was to live without one. Bygones! These days I have a small shed, but a couple of years ago I waited for two months for the damn wind to stop blowing out of Mongolia before I could spray outdoors. Then the ambient temperature was wrong for the coating. You could make a big cardboard spray booth in your kitchen. I have seen this done. In that case, you will need a serious mask. I really mean this. Any interior or even exterior spraying is hazardous, but in a kitchen and in a spray booth it is just plain dumb to not use one. And no, the paper filter type will not do. Again, trust me. I used to do architectural painting for a living, and each of my crew had access to an open box of fresh filters. You need one that takes OSHA certified cartridges for filtering out toxins and paint mist. There is another solution. And for that you just need to open the window to ventilate the room.

    Hop over to our own BK dude's website ... randyjawa's own site. Reference him in the forums cuz his signature refers to the site. Anyway, find his article on brush-painting bike frames. There you go!

    Again, it's lots of work, but if carefully done it can look great. I did the stays on one bike like that — without primer. Some paints are self priming. It looked good three years ago and still does. I did it just to keep the rust off. It worked!
    Last edited by Lenton58; 02-12-11 at 11:23 AM.
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  23. #48
    No, your OTHER left!! bikenut2011's Avatar
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    Yes, i agree... with all above^^^... if you decide to go DIY, its definitely going to be alot of work and you will make mistakes which will cause you to have to redo things (even more work), but if you take your time and are educated about the process, you can achieve great results. In you situation (the apartment), i would HIGHLY recommend the brush on method, check Randy's site, tons of info about it. He posted a pic on here awhile back, and you would swear it was a professional automotive spray paint job ...just awesome.

    Next frame i paint, i am trying the brush on method

    and if it turns out well you will have something you can pride yourself in, knowing you did it yourself and saved some money too. Makes the ride even better!!

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  24. #49
    )) <> (( illwafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmoneygetpaid View Post
    Those are the only two spaces I have access to and can work on projects like this on, as someone who lives in a city where space is costly and coveted. Unless there's an alternative I am missing. Maybe I could ask my landlord about using the basement for an evening?

    And how much sanding am I to do at each stage, as well? Ie how will I know I've sanded enough?

    And will the rustoleum "stops rust crystal clear" enamel work as a clear coat? The can says aluminum, brass, and something else, but doesn't specifically say steel.
    You absolutely should not spray indoors. Even outdoors, you should wear a mask. I live in a condo and have done several jobs (in the wind - not ideal but manageable) by getting some rope and slinging it over a tree branch and through the bottom bracket. spray it outside, wait till it is dry to touch, then bring it indoors and keep it suspended the same way.

    sanding depends on how good you are, the results, and your overall process. i've done my bikes like this: primer (1.5 cans), then 3 cans of color directly after primer, then 2 cans of clear about 15 mins after your last coat of color. then i brought it inside to sit for 3 weeks (takes a long time). the results were pretty good, although not perfect.

    the best way would be to do your primer 1 day. let it dry 2 days, then sand where needed. repeat for every color coat up to the clear. you probably don't want to sand your clearcoat.

    or, you can use epoxy paint and just bomb it all in one day. lay it on heavy. it'll dry in just over a week. sand down any mistakes, and polish with rubbing/polishing compound and then wax.

    edit: yes that can of clear will work fine unless you use a lacquer paint (doubtful).

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