Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-18-11, 08:35 AM   #1
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Slipping axle & horizontal dropouts

Slipping axle & horizontal dropouts

I have a recurring problem with a slipping axle on my 1978 Trek 400. The wheelset and axle are new 130mm Dura Ace. I’ve used both Shimano Ultegra and Velo Orange quick release bolts. Both slip. The rear drop-out was professionally cold set to 130mm, using the correct Park tool to set the rear triangle.

The axle slips forward as I accelerate from a stop. Since I’m clipped-in, I fall each time. Not only is falling an issue, I’m concerned I’ll fall among vehicles that are within striking distance.

Any suggestions? I’m ready to buy a frame with vertical drop-outs.

Last edited by Barrettscv; 02-18-11 at 10:12 AM.
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 08:45 AM   #2
Ex Pres
#39
 
Ex Pres's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: the 35223 (AL)
Bikes:
Posts: 6,334
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Are the Ultegra and V/O quick releases internal or external cam?

You want internal cam. External will be an issue.

Edit: I see the V/O at least are internal, so this may not be the issue.

Next I'm guessing the lock nuts on the new DA hubs are smooth - which are fine for and made to work with vertical drops. If so, you may want to try swapping out the locknuts.

Last edited by Ex Pres; 02-18-11 at 08:51 AM.
Ex Pres is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 08:46 AM   #3
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
Are the Ultegra and V/O quick releases internal or external cam?

You want internal cam. External will be an issue.
Both are internal.
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 09:39 AM   #4
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post

Next I'm guessing the lock nuts on the new DA hubs are smooth - which are fine for and made to work with vertical drops. If so, you may want to try swapping out the locknuts.
Hi & thank you for talking me through this.

I removed the wheel, the locknuts have four or five dozen radial grooves.

Can I just add a star washer from the hardware store?

Michael
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 09:40 AM   #5
dbakl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes: Cinelli, Paramount, Raleigh, Carlton, Zeus, Gemniani, Frejus, Legnano, Pinarello, Falcon
Posts: 5,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Are the QR aluminum? I hear they don't get as good a bite as steel, but I've never used.

Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?
dbakl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 09:43 AM   #6
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,338
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?
Excellent question, but I doubt the OP has overlooked this. Ex Pres' suggestion about a locknut that will give more bite is a good one.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 09:57 AM   #7
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbakl View Post
Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?
I double checked this and the axle is not wider than the drop-outs. The quick-release is also grooved on both sides. I'm using plenty of tension when setting the quick release.
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 10:22 AM   #8
cuda2k
Unique Vintage Steel
 
cuda2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Allen, TX
Bikes: Kirk Frameworks JKS-C, Serotta Nova, Gazelle AB-Frame, Fuji Team Issue, Schwinn Crosscut, All-City Space Horse
Posts: 11,486
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Sounds like the lock nuts and/or QR bases aren't giving enough bite on the dropout to me too. Had a similar issue on my Serotta with a fairly recent made Campy Daytona hub. Had to really tighten down the QR, but haven't had any issues since. Seems like you're having a more serious version of the same basic problem but simply tightening down the QR isn't solving it. Maybe scuff the lock nuts mating surfaces with some rough sand paper? Or try to find some lock nuts with better bite.
cuda2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 10:46 AM   #9
Captain Blight
Senior Member
 
Captain Blight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Bikes: -1973 Motobecane Mirage -197? Velosolex L'Etoile -'71 Raleigh Super Course
Posts: 2,473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Try tightening the QR down a little more. I'm as big boy and i like to ride hard, and I always worry I'm going to break something when I tighten down my rear QR. I never have, which is good; anything less and the rear wheel moves on me.

Skewers are a lot cheaper than a busted collarbone.
Captain Blight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 11:01 AM   #10
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Blight View Post
Try tightening the QR down a little more. I'm as big boy and i like to ride hard, and I always worry I'm going to break something when I tighten down my rear QR. I never have, which is good; anything less and the rear wheel moves on me.

Skewers are a lot cheaper than a busted collarbone.
I'll do that. The V/O skewer actually broke at the cam end. It broke after 15 miles of riding, while pulling away from a stop light. Down I went. I had to walk home after that. I have a spare skewer and will bring it with.

Has anyone just added star washers? Anything wrong with that?

Today. I'll ride my modern CX bike. The C&V bike is my rain bike.
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 12:35 PM   #11
GrayJay
Senior Member
 
GrayJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I feel your pain, fell and broke a rib last year due to this same problem. I use older skewers with teeth, (not just grooves) to bite into the dropout material. Definitly make sure the dropout roughed up a bit and note that the texture of the outer axel locknut is responsible for providing 1/2 of the grip so make sure they also have an aggressive pattern too. I always need to tighten my skewer a bit more than I am comfortable with, on the ragged edge of stripping the threads on the right side locknut or breaking the skewer in order to get enough grip to keep the axel from slipping.
GrayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 12:47 PM   #12
triplebutted
Senior Member
 
triplebutted's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SoCal
Bikes: Lemond, Gios, Fuji, Trek, too many to write
Posts: 1,886
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is really interesting and would love to know what the resolution is.
triplebutted is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 12:59 PM   #13
Velognome 
Get off my lawn!
 
Velognome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Garden State
Bikes: 1917 Loomis, 1923 Rudge, 1930 Hercules Renown, 1947 Mclean, 1948 JA Holland, 1955 Hetchins, 1957 Carlton Flyer, 1962 Raleigh Sport, 1978&81 Raleigh Gomp GS', 2010 Raliegh Clubman
Posts: 6,135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
I've had the same problem with 2 of my bikes. Both had alum/aloy Qr's. I replaced them with steel Qr's from my parts box and have yet to have a problem. It's been 3 year on one bike and 1 1/2 on the other. Seems the light weight Qr. just don't have the bite I guess.
Velognome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 01:03 PM   #14
20grit
Curmudgeon in Training
 
20grit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rural Retreat, VA
Bikes: 1974 Gazelle Champion Mondial, 2010 Cannondale Trail SL, 1988 Peugeot Nice, 1992ish Stumpjumper Comp,1990's Schwinn Moab
Posts: 1,934
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I have the same problem with some Deore QR's on my Stumpjumper. I've not ridden it much recently but I'll be looking into some solutions as well.
20grit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 01:47 PM   #15
MetinUz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
When OP says "professionally cold set", one assumes that the dropouts were also adjusted using the Campy or Park dropout adjustment tool. If the dropouts are not square, it may be hard to get enough tension on the skewer to keep the axle in place.
MetinUz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 02:39 PM   #16
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetinUz View Post
When OP says "professionally cold set", one assumes that the dropouts were also adjusted using the Campy or Park dropout adjustment tool. If the dropouts are not square, it may be hard to get enough tension on the skewer to keep the axle in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
The rear drop-out was professionally cold set to 130mm, using the correct Park tool to set the rear triangle.
The rear triangle is square.
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 03:03 PM   #17
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, '86 Gazelle champion mondial, '81? Grandis, and lots of uncertainty on some
Posts: 10,663
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
The rear triangle is square.
That's one side of the story.
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
Honking a car horn is a privilege, not a right.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 03:16 PM   #18
MetinUz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
The rear triangle is square.
The rear triangle may be square, but dropouts also need to be square. I have seen shops cold set the frame, but not properly align the dropouts or the derailleur hanger. Each of these is a separate step, using different tools. Park makes tools for each of these three steps.
MetinUz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 03:24 PM   #19
Mike Mills
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There is no way it should be slipping. If it is, you are not generating enough friction.

1. Are the dropout faces and all the lock nuts clean and dry (free from any/all lubricants)? If not, you may not be able to get enough friction to hold the axle in place. Often parts have preservatives/rust preventatives on them. Degrease them and then give it another try.

2. Is there loose paint on the drop outs interfering with a good bite?


If the QR spindles are aluminum, replace them with good quality (hardened) steel.
Mike Mills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-11, 07:27 PM   #20
DMNHCAGrandPrix
Senior Member
 
DMNHCAGrandPrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Northern CA
Bikes:
Posts: 218
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=Has anyone just added star washers? Anything wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

I had the slipping axle problem on a 1988 Campy Chorus rear hub. It didn't matter how hard I tightened the quick release, I would get slow slippage if I stood on pedals or climbed steep hills. When I looked in greater detail, it turned out I was missing a good serrated friction surface on just one of the four contact points between quick release skewer, frame dropout and hub locknuts. (The previous owner had installed the drive side campy locknut in reverse, which made it easier to get to with a cone wrench. However reversing the locknut meant the serrated surface was facing in instead of out. The slipping problem went away as soon as I flipped the locknut and restored a good bite to the inner side of the rear frame dropout). It sounds like the serrations on your Dura Ace locknuts are already facing out towards the dropouts. However, adding a thin star washer may still increase the friction enough to solve the problem, and seems like a simple, cheap, worthwhile thing to try.
DMNHCAGrandPrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-11, 09:13 AM   #21
Barrettscv 
Have bike, will travel
Thread Starter
 
Barrettscv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Edwardsville, Illinois
Bikes: De Rosa Super Prestige, Colnago Nuova Mexico, Eddy Merckx Corsa Extra, Pinarello Gavia, Schwinn Paramount, Motobecane Grand Record, Peugeot PX10, Serotta Nova X, Simoncini Cyclocross Special, Origin8 monstercross, Pedal Force CG2 and CX2
Posts: 10,763
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMNHCAGrandPrix View Post
I had the slipping axle problem on a 1988 Campy Chorus rear hub. It didn't matter how hard I tightened the quick release, I would get slow slippage if I stood on pedals or climbed steep hills. When I looked in greater detail, it turned out I was missing a good serrated friction surface on just one of the four contact points between quick release skewer, frame dropout and hub locknuts. (The previous owner had installed the drive side campy locknut in reverse, which made it easier to get to with a cone wrench. However reversing the locknut meant the serrated surface was facing in instead of out. The slipping problem went away as soon as I flipped the locknut and restored a good bite to the inner side of the rear frame dropout). It sounds like the serrations on your Dura Ace locknuts are already facing out towards the dropouts. However, adding a thin star washer may still increase the friction enough to solve the problem, and seems like a simple, cheap, worthwhile thing to try.
I'm going to add a small star washer this week. I'll try one between the drive side skewer nut and the drop-out first. The drive side gets all the torque and placing the washer on the outside of the drop-out will not change the position of the axle in any way.

While the Velo Orange skewer is steel, the modern Dura Ace hub is all alloy and was never engineered for horizontal drop-outs. I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.

Michael
Barrettscv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-11, 09:16 AM   #22
jimmuller 
What??? Only 2 wheels?
 
jimmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Boston-ish, MA
Bikes: '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, '86 Gazelle champion mondial, '81? Grandis, and lots of uncertainty on some
Posts: 10,663
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.
I haven't read all this thread carefully so I apologize if this has been covered. But why do you have alloy in contact with the dropouts? There could be alloy spacers on the axle, but are not the outer screwed=on locking rings steel?
__________________
Real cyclists use toe clips.
With great bikes comes great responsibility.
Honking a car horn is a privilege, not a right.
jimmuller
jimmuller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-11, 11:19 AM   #23
andychrist
Devil's Advocate
 
andychrist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC & Mid Hudson Valley, NY
Bikes: 1976 Fuji SRR, 2005 Fuji Del Rey, 2009 Mach 2, 2005 Bacchetta Giro 20
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I had a similar problem with an old Fuji that I used to pull a cargo trailer. The rear wheel kept slipping (no adjustment screws on that el cheapo model) so I over tightened the skewer until it snapped. Replaced with some nice FSA jobbies that held up well but the wheel still slipped. Now, here's the real important point: while the axle would slide forward on the drive side, it would also slip to the rear on the non-drive side. Of course, this would cause the whole wheel to twist enough so that the tire would rub against the left side stays and stop me cold. Not fun when navigating a dangerous highway intersection, it goes without saying.

The solution came to me finally when I realized that the same claw adapter sold for the rear derailleur could be reversed to mount inside the left rear dropout, preventing the axle from being able to slide backwards on that side. One buck from bikepartsusa.com and now the wheel stays straight even under the heaviest loads.

Hope this helps...
andychrist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-11, 11:22 AM   #24
Mike Mills
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 2,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
I'm going to add a small star washer this week. I'll try one between the drive side skewer nut and the drop-out first. The drive side gets all the torque and placing the washer on the outside of the drop-out will not change the position of the axle in any way.

While the Velo Orange skewer is steel, the modern Dura Ace hub is all alloy and was never engineered for horizontal drop-outs. I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.

Michael
Michael,

Your argument rings hollow with me because it argues assumptions and conventional wisdom. Consider this, the fact is your axle is slipping and they were not intended to do so, furthermore, most do not slip. There is something wrong with your set up. Look further into that hypothesis. Find out what is wrong with your set up.

The proper solution will be dependant upon the cause. Adding a star washer is and should be entirely unnecessary. Something esle is wrong. Find out what it is.
Mike Mills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-11, 11:26 AM   #25
junkfoodjunkie 
@$#!?&!!$
 
junkfoodjunkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Green Country, OK
Bikes:
Posts: 696
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I like to use locking skewers on the rear wheel for this reason. It does not take but a few seconds more to get the wheel on and off.

Jake
__________________
Junkfood Bike!!

My Art
junkfoodjunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:06 PM.