4funbikes

Ok, Trying to google any info on this is a mess.
The only thing I have come up with is that Albert Eisentraut built the first few of these frames, and the rest was various builders. I'm sure mine is not one of those.
I'm trying to narrow down what builder, and maybe even what tubeset and lugs were used. Any general information would be great.
I've been told it's Columbus tubing and Cinelli lugs. Dropouts are Campagnolo. That's about all I know.
There are two sets of serial numbers on the bottom bracket.

bobbycorno

I'd bet good money Albert built that. The detailing of the seat cluster is identical to his "Limited" series bikes. And that seat binder bolt takes a 3/16 allen, rather than 5mm, right? (I've owned 3 'trauts: 2 Limiteds and a Rainbow, so I'm pretty familiar with them.)

SP
Bend, OR

ps - Those are Nervex Pro lugs. No question about it.

4funbikes

It does take a 3/16 allen.

The reason I claimed to be sure that it was not is because, the one person who posted about having one had an Eisentraut Oakland, CA decal, this one does not, yet it has the original bike shop sticker and bike license.
It was also said that there was a good chance he made no more than 20 or so frame sets.
One of the serial numbers reads 75A029. Assuming thats the year and production numer.

Also, I'd imagine that it being built by him would be the best outcome, so I didn't want to hype it up too much.

Thanks a bunch for that info!

unworthy1

There was a thread on these Alpine/CID/Eisentraut frames, but darned if I can locate it...I can say that one of the owners of Georgetown (Larry Black) might be still in business at College Park Cycles and might have info for you. I'd bet that given the forkcrown that the fork blades are Reynolds, so the rest of the frame might be 531, too. What I read is that some of their frames were bought naked from MKM in England (Ron Kitching plus Metcalfe and Mason) and labeled here as either Alpine or CID...don't know what details ID the MKM frames, but if bobbycorno says it's an Eisentraut....
Edit: searching for more info I came across a Flickr set that is of a 531 Alpine frame with similar frame details (seat stay tops, nervex pros, Campy verticals, chainstay stop, etc.) but with a different Wagner crown, also this takes a standard pinch bolt, not the "Dutch" style...Chas Coleridge of Oakland owns it, says it was built by Tom Board in England:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/2826722...8089/lightbox/

4funbikes

A few more pics in this thread..
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ghlight=alpine

Mine has campy long drops also. The ones in the thread above don't quite match mine either.
Also mine does not have braze on cable routers near the BB.

bobbycorno

That serial number is more evidence pointing toward Albert: it's exactly the same format as on all 3 of my 'trauts. 2-digit year, alpha model designator, and 3-digit sequence number.

SP
Bend, OR

unworthy1

that may be the old thread I couldn't find...thanks...based on that labeled Eisentraut, I'd be less inclined to think that yours (with Nervex Pro, Vagner crown and different seat cluster) would have been made by Albert, it's just too different. But the sure thing would be to contact him and ask. I couldn't tell what style DOs were on your bike, so guessed they were verticals.
Then again: the stay treatment does look like things Albert did on his Limiteds (although none I've seen used a Nervex Pro lug) including the point that has to have been added to the top of that lug, plus the modified binder. I can't rule it out...so, ask the man himself.

bobbycorno

There were (at least) two models of Eisentraut Limited: road, made with Prugnat long-point lugs, and touring, made with Nervex Pro lugs and crown. Both had the same seatstay treatment. I've owned one of each.

SP
Bend, OR

unworthy1

well, I live and learn: didn't know there were any Limiteds with Nervex Pro lugs

AZORCH

Oddly enough, I was offered one of these over the weekend. Still waiting for the seller to call back after an initial conversation yesterday.

4funbikes

Thanks for the input fellas. I've been digging around more. I've yet to see another 'traut or alpine match this one. Some have the same fork crown, but also have braze on cable routing, others have different crowns, with braze on routing.

Has anyone talked to Albert before? I'd hate to bother the man about a bike he built decades ago.

bobbycorno

Well, he's probably the only one who could tell you for sure whether he built it (tho' I've seen enough to convince me that he did).

And I did talk to him, probably 20 yrs ago when he was in Seattle visiting a local dealer. Even got his autograph on a copy of BG that had him on the cover. He impressed me as quite friendly and willing to share info.

SP
Bend, OR

Poguemahone

Different bike than yours. I don't think this means much. Mine is earlier, 1973.

There appears to be some variation in the early limiteds, both touring and racing. The lug cutouts on mine were also on an early limited touring model we discussed recently on a valuation thread, IIRC . Stay treatment is different.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ght=eisentraut

Mine is a mixed tubeset. My understanding is mine was used as a team bike for the Georgetown C.; it is painted in the team colours.

verktyg 

Georgetown Cycles' Alpines and Eisentrauts

From a number of stories that I read and heard, Georgetown Cycles put their Alpine Cycles decals on everything and anything!

From a former employee???

"...the original intention was to affix the name to such imports as MKM, Hurlow, Iles, Condor, Roberts, Limongi, and a variety of other interesting imports [plus] some Domestics like Tanguy and Eisentraut, many a decal found its way to other machines less worthy of the names."

They also sold frames under the C-I-D marque (Cycle Import and Design).

From Larry Black of College Park Cycles:

"Alpine was a trademark of Georgetown Cycle Sport, where I worked in the 70's in Washington. We imported British bikes from Hurlow, Kitching, Roberts, Metcalf, and had them made as Alpine and C.I. D. (Cycle Import and Design). Later, we had Eisentraut build bikes in Oakland under our design and had a special lug die [made]. I opened College Park bicycles in 1979 and Fred Kelley was an early customer. A strong rider, he broke two bikes I sold him so he built a frame as a project. After a few months he tried another and with a friend started a frame building biz and used some of Georgetown's leftover Alpine decals. He constructed my first triplet and a handful of tandems and hundreds of singles. He gave it up about 1985, but a partner is still in the bike business and Fred is into homesteading....
Larry black
Mt Airy, Md"

A local frame builder I know worked for Eisentraut and built a lot of the Limited model frames. I understand that quite a few of those went to Georgetown Cycles.

I bought an Alpine frame from him that he claims was made by UK frame builder Tom Board. My friend still has a big stack of Alpine Cycles decals. Here's my Alpine:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/2826722...7625831041253/


The bike pictured at the beginning of this thread IS an Eisentraut Limited badged as an Alpine.

It has Nervex Professional lugs and crown plus Eisentraut Limit style fast back seat stays attached to the sides of the seat lug. I've seen Limiteds with these style Nervex lugs, Nervex short point lugs with the heart shape punched out plus long point Prugnat lugs.

They all seemed to use the same Nervex fork crown.

In the 70s, a local shop in the Southwest was an Eisentraut dealer. I asked the shop owner "what kind of tubing are those Eisentrauts were made of?"

His curt response was "TUBING!". End of questions.

Albert Eisentraut used a lot of different brands of tubes plus he frequently mixed brands to get the ride results he wanted. I've heard that he used a lot of Ishiwata tubing plus Super Vitus 971, 980 and 983.

There was no realistic mechanical difference between any of the top name brands of tubing back in the 70s. Reynolds 531 was made of a manganese molybdenum alloy (753 was the same alloy just heat treated to a higher strength). Columbus, Tange and Ishiwata used 4130 chrome molybdenum alloy steel. Super Vitus was made from a number of different alloys with the same strength as the other premium brands.

Chas. verktyg

ollo_ollo

I just began visiting BF again after a long absence & saw this thread. After reviewing my old pics, I found a few more of the Alpine I owned for a while.

Notice the unusual fillet brazing at the head tube, possibly done to allow 700 rims on a 45cm frame size.

When I corresponded with Albert, he said that he never combined fillet brazing & lugs on the same frame. These pics show the frame as it was when purchased. Later, I added the long seat post & different bars shown in the old thread. Alpine frame sets are a very rare bird. Don

verktyg 

Neat bike. Looks like it handles well. One problem with smaller frames is that they handle like wheelbarrows because of poorly designed frame geometry.

The reason for going lugless on the head tube was to get the correct front end geometry. Some top tube/head tube lugs were available in angles from ~71° to 76° but most were 72° or 73°.

They could be modified by cutting and re-welding but that's a lot of work. The real problem was with the bottom lug at the head tube/down tube junction.

To get a strong braze with good penetration so that the tubes are joined to one another not just to the lugs requires a close slip fit between the lugs and the tubes. For brass it's about .003" -.005" (0.08mm - 0.10mm) for effective capillary action.

With silver the gaps need to be closer because most of the common silver brazing alloys require a narrow gap to flow via capillary action and completely fill the voids plus silver brazing alloys are not as strong as brass when filling larger gaps.

Modifying lug angles to get the proper clearance is a lot of work, that's why some smaller frames are lugless or have a lugless head tube.

Chas. verktyg

verktyg 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/2826722...7625831041253/

This frame had been in a front ender crash and was straightened and realigned to the original geometry by a frame builder.

The paint was rather chipped and scratched and sat around for quite a while before I decided to put it together. Since it wasn't cherry I decided to build it up as a wet weather beater bike using mostly old components that I had laying around.

The first time I threw some wheels under it I saw the high bottom bracket and right away knew that it was a criterium frame.

It's got a wheel base under 100cm with 75° angles plus an 11 1/4" bottom bracket height (286mm).

It was built in the classic Brit Time Trial/Criterium mold. Even though it's made of lighter gage Reynolds 531 tubing with smaller diameter ends on the forks and stays, it was pretty harsh riding with 700x23c tires. I put on some Panaracer Pasela 700x28c tires which smoothed out the ride.

The bigger tires increased the toe clip overlap. I usually ride with XL toeclips but had to modify a set of shorter ones to give me enough front wheel clearance.

Since I live in the hills, I installed old time alpine gearing on this Alpine: Stronglight 48-38 front with a Suntour Ultra 6 speed narrow 13-32 freewheel.

The ride is acceptable and the handling is very responsive without being twitchy. Just don't let go of the bars. ;-)

Before and after touching up the paint. Touch up is camouflage, just needs to pass the 5 foot test.

Before


After




Chas. verktyg

das60

I was around the team sponsored by Georgetown Cycle Sport in those days. I would defer to Larry Black as his knowledge is encyclopedic. From memory, the "Alpine" cycles were handed to the big guns on the team as their criterium bikes. The Eisentraut's were painted a gunmetal grey with a red panel and gold letters. The Slaughters, Pearson Prehn and Ian Jackson all used a CID frame as their road bikes. The Alpines had very aggressive wheelbases and bottom bracket clearances. The CID's were more relaxed.

verktyg 

Das60, check out my message above dated 04-04-11. It has some quotes from Larry Black about GCS and Alpine.

My friend who worked for Eisentraut painted a lot of the frames for him. The other day he showed me an Eisentraut he was repainting. The paint was stripped off. He pointed out the Super Vitus tubing stamps in seat stays. He went on to say that Eisentraut used a mix of tubing depending on the bikes intended use.

Also back in the early 70s Eisentraut experimented with different features until he settled on his classic trademark style so on the earlier frames there are variances.

Alpine and CID frames came from so many sources that it's hard to generalize about the geometry and handling of one frame from the other.

Chas. verktyg

das60

Chas, no doubt you are largely correct. I simply recall that in about 1975 a batch of frames arrived from Eisentraut dark grey in color with red panels on the down and set tubes. These were handed to the sponsored riders for NCVC/Georgetown Cycle Sport as "Team Bikes." Several of the guys used these only in short criteriums and had other CID bikes for longer road races and training. At least one National Team member riding for NCVC at the time found the bike unrideable for long road races. We all rode whatever was generously provided by Mike Schwering and Larry Black and were grateful for their generous support. I would have never gotten on the track had Larry not provided me and Craig Parker bikes.