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Old 03-22-11, 04:33 AM   #1
paulinho
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1972 Eddy Merckx

New to the forum and wondered whether any one could give me more information about this 1972 Merckx I was lucky enough to acquire recently?
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Old 03-22-11, 08:10 AM   #2
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Hard to tell from the small pic. In '72 there were only Eddy Merckx branded bikes, he was not in the bike building business yet. Could be a Falcon, or Kessels, or ?? Post bigger pics for more info.
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Old 03-22-11, 08:59 AM   #3
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Not to sound snarky or anything, but it looks too nice to be a Falcon "Merckx", so probably a Kessels?

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Old 03-22-11, 09:02 AM   #4
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This could very well be a bike we would love to see bigger and better shots of.
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Old 03-22-11, 09:12 AM   #5
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Why does the original poster think this bike is from 1972?
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Old 03-22-11, 09:34 AM   #6
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Why does the original poster think this bike is from 1972?
I dont know. Is there something your not telling us?
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Old 03-22-11, 09:50 AM   #7
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I dont know. Is there something your not telling us?
A. It has a Campagnolo Nuovo Gran Sport group (1974+) with an aluminum 3-pin crankset on it.
B. The brake levers look like long-reach Weinmanns.
C. Given the components listed in A and B, just how easy is it to pin the date on a Falcon?

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Old 03-22-11, 10:09 AM   #8
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Many thanks for your thoughts so far - a few more pics here - will hopefully be able to post higher resolution in coming days.

I was told it was a 1972 but can't guarantee it.
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Old 03-22-11, 10:14 AM   #9
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I have an early 70's Kessels Eddy Merckx, I think this is a De Rosa.
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Old 03-22-11, 10:16 AM   #10
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I'm just guessing, but based on the chrome forkcrown and water-bottle bosses, and notwithstanding the top tube clips and early Columbus sticker...I'd guess it's not a Falcon and it's later than '72. Don't know if it's possible for it to be a DeRosa (or one built with his supervision) but could be a Kessels...definitely not a Miyata.
Edit, I'll have to go with vjp, if he had a Kessels to compare against, then it IS possible for it to be a DeRosa (or Ugo-supervised).
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Old 03-22-11, 10:24 AM   #11
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The Kessels bikes are all 531 if I am not mistaken.
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Old 03-22-11, 10:25 AM   #12
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Would anyone be able to hazard a guess at the value assuming it is a DeRosa build?
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Old 03-22-11, 10:27 AM   #13
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http://www.speedbicycles.ch/showBike...14eea2fa0e6227

This bike has the DeRosa engraved on the seat stay cap, maybe a rare Van Der Est?
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Old 03-22-11, 10:43 AM   #14
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Whoa, let's back up a little: there's much controversy and murkiness about the relationship between Ugo DeRosa and Merckx frame production: it's generally accepted as fact that Ugo built the TEAM frames that Eddy and others on the Molteni team rode (though before he did Kessels built some and rumour says that Colnago made one) and that Ugo was the guy to set up the factory and train some builders for the Merckx factory in Belgium. But most people won't say that he ever built any production Merckx frames and certainly none that got this "Eddy" labeling and picture decals on Molteni orange: that's what the "licensed" frames get, until Merckx factory started making them. The factory went into full production in 1980...
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Old 03-22-11, 10:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Whoa, let's back up a little: there's much controversy and murkiness about the relationship between Ugo DeRosa and Merckx frame production: it's generally accepted as fact that Ugo built the TEAM frames that Eddy and others on the Molteni team rode (though before he did Kessels built some and rumour says that Colnago made one) and that Ugo was the guy to set up the factory and train some builders for the Merckx factory in Belgium. But most people won't say that he ever built any production Merckx frames and certainly none that got this "Eddy" labeling and picture decals on Molteni orange: that's what the "licensed" frames get, until Merckx factory started making them. The factory went into full production in 1980...
Kessels built for Eddy at the same time Eddy was getting bikes from De Rosa and Colnago - the eras overlap - as well as late in Eddy's career, post-Molteni. There's no "rumour" regarding Colnago - they built quite a few Molteni team bikes over a number of years. The formal De Rosa-Molteni relationship apparently started in '73, though Ugo may have built a frame or two for Eddy prior to that. Eddy also rode Colnagos that year, at least some of the time. De Rosa built for Fiat, I believe, and Kessels for C&A.
There's also a ton of evidence, by the way, that De Rosa also built at least a few of the very early production Merckx frames - I've seen some that are pretty nearly indisputable.
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Old 03-22-11, 10:49 AM   #16
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I was contemplating that it "looks" like a De Rosa. If it is, then I would assume that it is a re-finished bike with EM livery. Ignoring the EM decals it does look like a De Rosa to me.
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Old 03-22-11, 10:51 AM   #17
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Paulinho,

Do you have a pic of the bottom of the BB shell? Is there a cutout? Shape of cutout?
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Old 03-22-11, 10:52 AM   #18
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If it's a De Rosa, the seatstay caps and top of fork crown should tell the tale.
(With a caveat that 70's De Rosas vary enough feature-wise, that very little if anything is completely definitive.)

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Old 03-22-11, 10:57 AM   #19
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Paulinho,

Do you have a pic of the bottom of the BB shell? Is there a cutout? Shape of cutout?
I'm heading home from work now.

Will have a look.
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Old 03-22-11, 11:12 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Picchio Special View Post
There's no "rumour" regarding Colnago - they built quite a few Molteni team bikes over a number of years.
There's also a ton of evidence, by the way, that De Rosa also built at least a few of the very early production Merckx frames - I've seen some that are pretty nearly indisputable.
I am not any kind of expert in this, but what I was referring to was the rumour that Ernesto Colnago himself ever built a frame for Eddy (or anyone else for that matter), not whether Eddy rode on Colnago-branded frames...but that's another controversy we don't need to raise.
Words I have read (including an account by Richard Sachs) is that the first frames built for the Milan Cycle trade show (show bikes) were almost certainly made in DeRosa's shop and since the lugs had the distinctive cutouts, the stay caps engraved "DeRosa" and the stays a distinctive shape: there was little doubt where they came from, though this "accepted fact" was never made public. I've also read that the early production frames that were made in Belgium had some of the same frame bits (lugs but not with heart cut-outs, stays and even DeRosa forkcrowns and stay caps) and this is the reason that people say that DeRosa was actually building frames there. Others say it only proves where Merckx was sourcing his frame building bits during early days.
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Old 03-22-11, 11:21 AM   #21
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I don't think anyone was assuming that this bike is one of the early Merckx factory bikes that MAY have been built by De Rosa, it is 10 or so years early for that.

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I am not any kind of expert in this, but what I was referring to was the rumour that Ernesto Colnago himself ever built a frame for Eddy (or anyone else for that matter), not whether Eddy rode on Colnago-branded frames...but that's another controversy we don't need to raise.
Words I have read (including an account by Richard Sachs) is that the first frames built for the Milan Cycle trade show (show bikes) were almost certainly made in DeRosa's shop and since the lugs had the distinctive cutouts, the stay caps engraved "DeRosa" and the stays a distinctive shape: there was little doubt where they came from, though this "accepted fact" was never made public. I've also read that the early production frames that were made in Belgium had some of the same frame bits (lugs but not with heart cut-outs, stays and even DeRosa forkcrowns and stay caps) and this is the reason that people say that DeRosa was actually building frames there. Others say it only proves where Merckx was sourcing his frame building bits during early days.
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Old 03-22-11, 11:38 AM   #22
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In the BB shell there is a stamped number 9. There is no cutout.

Does this help identify it?
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Old 03-22-11, 12:36 PM   #23
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...apparently originally purchased in Milan in 1972.
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Old 03-22-11, 12:37 PM   #24
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In the BB shell there is a stamped number 9. There is no cutout.

Does this help identify it?
It possibly helps identify what it isn't.

Kessels had two large round holes in the BB shell and DeRosa have a heart shaped cut out.

Are there cut-outs in the lugs? What shape are they?
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Old 03-22-11, 12:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I am not any kind of expert in this, but what I was referring to was the rumour that Ernesto Colnago himself ever built a frame for Eddy (or anyone else for that matter), not whether Eddy rode on Colnago-branded frames...but that's another controversy we don't need to raise.
This is more clear - thanks. But I'm not aware that there's any controversary as to whether Colnago (the maker) built some of Eddy's frames - that's pretty certain, IMO.
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