Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 41
  1. #1
    Anachronist.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Albany, NY
    My Bikes
    1981 Schwinn Le Tour, 2010 Motobecane Sprint
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Vintage Steel vs. Modern Steel vs. Aluminum/Carbon

    I love my Motobecane Sprint. It's a great bike as far as I am concerned(though my experience with it has been like going from a used Jeep of an old MTB to a new Lotus). The thing is though, I really love the ride of old steel frames. Because of this I was thinking about finding a Masi Gran Criterium frameset, and using the Ultegra 6600 components from my Motobecane on it. They're not the absolute top of the Ultegra line any more, but they work very well and I already own them.

    The thing is the Motobecane is wonderfully stiff, and I don't know how much performance I'll be giving up just to have the feel of steel and a vintage looking frame under me. I also don't know if this modern Masi steel frame will perform like a classic steel bike(it is lugged and uses Reynolds 525). It is designed around 700c wheels, and has geometry that is within a few tenths of a degree of my Motobecane in every dimension(except the wheelbase, which is like 10mm longer on the Masi).

    Does anyone here have experience making this sort of switch? I'm asking here because you all have vintage road bikes, and if there is any crosstalk with the retro-modern road bike crowd I think I can paint an accurate picture of what this switch would entail.


    Isn't it pretty?
    '81 Schwinn Le Tour, '74 Schwinn Continental

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Haunchyville
    Posts
    6,351
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I had a similar experience a couple years ago. I first went from a modern stiff aluminum frame to a 1987 Paramount. In comparison I found it flexible and bouncy. I then tried modern Waterford with "oversized" steel tubing and found it much more to my liking. I have also since picked up a 1992 Paramount which also has OS tubing and that has turned into my main ride. It has a full 7700 DA group on it and is pretty much my perfect bike.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Binxsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    South Central Minnesota
    My Bikes
    79 Peugeot UO8, 89 Peugeot Triathlon, 1969 Shwinn Suburban, 99 Schwinn Super Stock 2, 60's Hiawatha
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Carbon is the devil....
    So It Goes.....

    89 Modernized Peugeot Triathalon
    79 Peugeot U-08 single speed
    8? Sekai Grand Tour 2500 single

  4. #4
    Senior Member Binxsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    South Central Minnesota
    My Bikes
    79 Peugeot UO8, 89 Peugeot Triathlon, 1969 Shwinn Suburban, 99 Schwinn Super Stock 2, 60's Hiawatha
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also this site just scares me......
    http://www.bustedcarbon.com/
    So It Goes.....

    89 Modernized Peugeot Triathalon
    79 Peugeot U-08 single speed
    8? Sekai Grand Tour 2500 single

  5. #5
    Senior Member canopus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kingwood, TX
    My Bikes
    1985 Cannondale SR300, 1985 Cannondale ST400, Gary Littlejohn Cruiser, BMX
    Posts
    1,207
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The answer in this forum is simple.... buy more parts, build both, ride both, problem solved. Then buy some true vintage steel, build it up to ride so that you can do a true comparison between frames and steel.

    Carbon is for racers...
    1984 Cannondale ST
    1985 Cannondale SR300
    1980 Gary Littlejohn Cruiser
    1984 Trek 760
    1981 Trek 710
    Pics

  6. #6
    South Carolina Ed
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Greer, SC
    My Bikes
    Family pool bikes - 73 Holdsworth Super Mistral, 79(?) Macario, 86 Bianchi Brava, 93 Viner Nemo, 07 Bottecchia Euro Team, 07 Windsor Fens, 07 Tommasso Mistral
    Posts
    3,153
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Maybe a good deal on a modern steel frame: http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...1_10000_202337

    I don't care what anybody says, but from an engineering point of view aluminum is a much better material for bike frames than steel because it is far easier to form and fabricate into complex shapes. I have a 73 531db racer, a 93 racer with shaped oversized Columbus nivacrome steel tubing, and three newish aluminum bikes, one with 7005 oversized tubes, another with shaped Columbus Zonal, and another with shaped Columbus Altec. For stiffness, NVH suppression, and lightness the modern aluminum bikes win easily. That said, I am very fond of my steel bikes and ride them as often as the others.

  7. #7
    26 tpi nut. sailorbenjamin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Rhode Island (an obscure suburb of Connecticut)
    My Bikes
    one of each
    Posts
    5,519
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do CF bikes get stuck seatposts?
    I have spoken.

  8. #8
    Muscle bike design spec robtown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Sterling VA
    My Bikes
    98 Giant CFR-TEAM, 00 Lemond, 08 Kestrel Evoke, 96 Colnago Master Olympic, 01 Colnago Ovalmaster, Raleigh Gran Sport, 03 Fuji World, 86 Paramount, 90 Miyata CF, 09 Ritchey Breakaway CX, Bianchi Trofeo, 12 HyperLite
    Posts
    3,654
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sailorbenjamin View Post
    Do CF bikes get stuck seatposts?
    I've had problems with CF seatposts slipping / dropping into the seat tube.
    Korval is Ships
    See my Hyperlite 411 it's the photo model on OutRiderUSA web page

  9. #9
    Senior Member Binxsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    South Central Minnesota
    My Bikes
    79 Peugeot UO8, 89 Peugeot Triathlon, 1969 Shwinn Suburban, 99 Schwinn Super Stock 2, 60's Hiawatha
    Posts
    455
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Out of curiosity, I see that nashbar sell there own frames that are branded "nashbar" On my localish CL a older nashbar bike popped up like 80's era. Was nashbar a bike company to begin with before they started supplying components and there own line or???
    So It Goes.....

    89 Modernized Peugeot Triathalon
    79 Peugeot U-08 single speed
    8? Sekai Grand Tour 2500 single

  10. #10
    Anachronist.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Albany, NY
    My Bikes
    1981 Schwinn Le Tour, 2010 Motobecane Sprint
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by canopus View Post
    The answer in this forum is simple.... buy more parts, build both, ride both, problem solved. Then buy some true vintage steel, build it up to ride so that you can do a true comparison between frames and steel.

    Carbon is for racers...
    I'm in college, that's not happening any time soon! I have some seat time on a 1981 Colnago Super that I really enjoyed though. It had a great ride quality, though it was noticeably less stiff than my Motobecane.

    From what I've read, built up with Shimano 105 the Masi is about 2lbs heavier than my Motobecane with Ultegra. I'm not sure how much I'll feel the extra two pounds from the saddle, but something tells me it won't be a huge difference to a 190lb rider.
    '81 Schwinn Le Tour, '74 Schwinn Continental

  11. #11
    Wookie Jesus inspires me. Puget Pounder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,225
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The only experience I have with a modern steel frame is my Gunnar Sport. Took it on a first ride this morning. Feels great and is much stiffer than the CV steel frames I've owned. My main rider was a Specialized Sirrus before I sold it and replaced it with a modern alu/CF bike. The Sirrus was a bit whippier than the Gunnar, especially when climbing. However, this isn't a really fair comparison as the Gunnar is made at Waterford and I didn't ride with the same wheels either.

  12. #12
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chicago SW burbs
    My Bikes
    2 many 2 fit here
    Posts
    3,146
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sced View Post
    I don't care what anybody says, but from an engineering point of view aluminum is a much better material for bike frames than steel because it is far easier to form and fabricate into complex shapes.
    That's an interesting comment. I've always viewed steel as the more versatile material, with respect to forming and fabricating. What methods of forming and fabricating are you referring to?
    Geoff
    "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am"

  13. #13
    Anachronist.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Albany, NY
    My Bikes
    1981 Schwinn Le Tour, 2010 Motobecane Sprint
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
    That's an interesting comment. I've always viewed steel as the more versatile material, with respect to forming and fabricating. What methods of forming and fabricating are you referring to?
    Maybe he's referring to extrusions? Steel responds better to heat and bending, which makes it handy for the hobbyist. If you have the equipment to mess with Aluminum though it is a very versatile material.
    '81 Schwinn Le Tour, '74 Schwinn Continental

  14. #14
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    WA state
    Posts
    4,816
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have two road bikes, one is all columbus steel with downtube shifters and the other one has an aluminum frame / carbon fork with 10 speed STI. They're definitely very different rides. If you want a steel bike by all means try one out. Steel frames do have disadvantages but realistically with the same components and wheels, I don't think you'll be giving up much or any performance. The biggest difference will be in how it feels.

  15. #15
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
    My Bikes
    1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
    Posts
    15,498
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Unless you are racing, an extra kilogram or two of frame weight is innocuous. I happen to like the look and feel of vintage steel.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  16. #16
    Ride Fast and Ride Safe! gioscinelli's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago
    My Bikes
    85 Gios Torino Professional-95 Cinelli Supercorse-06 Colnago C50-71 Peugeot PX 10-74 Peugeot Mixtie
    Posts
    1,015
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Carbon is for racer's who have sponsors with deep pockets(made in the far east and OOOOver Priced)! Aluminum is ok for short 50 mile ride, you'll feel the pain after a ride. Steel is for endurance, long distance rides, melts into on biometal. Titanium is overall the best of the group, light, comfy and will take you to places where no person been there before!
    85 Gios Professional - 95 Cinelli SC - 06 Colnago C 50 - Peugeot PX 10 - Peugeot Mixtie

  17. #17
    Senior Member RobbieTunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    15,939
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    There are better, more modern carbon bikes than my lugged CF 1988.
    There are better, more modern steel bikes than my lugged steel 85-89.
    There are better, more modern aluminum bikes than my aluminum 1986.

    I know they are out there. I haven't come across a reason to get one and keep it.
    Yet.

    Robbie ♪♫♪...☻

    I think back when I was fast, I was hallucinating.

    1982 Lotus Classique
    1987 D'Arienzo (Basso) SLX
    2004 Cinelli XLR8R2
    2014 Wraith Hustle
    2014 Wraith Paycheck (pending)

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,696
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I ride and race a Soma Smoothie Road Race frame made from Tange Prestige tubing. It suits my needs, but I do get lots and lots of crap from my riding buddies for riding steel.

    Honestly, having ridden many high end carbon, aluminum, and steel bikes, I could care less between the three. I'm always getting told that if I switch to a carbon frame and drop 1 or 2 pounds of bike weight, I'll undoubtedly go faster...I think it's all bull****.

    I'M THE ENGINE - the bike is merely a materialization of my efforts. If I can't push a 21pound steel bike up a hill, I sure as hell won't push that 17pounder up the hill any easier.

    I am, however, a total Kent Eriksen titanium fanboy. I have a slush fund for a custom frame for when I stop growing.

  19. #19
    Wookie Jesus inspires me. Puget Pounder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,225
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DRietz View Post
    I ride and race a Soma Smoothie Road Race frame made from Tange Prestige tubing. It suits my needs, but I do get lots and lots of crap from my riding buddies for riding steel.

    Honestly, having ridden many high end carbon, aluminum, and steel bikes, I could care less between the three. I'm always getting told that if I switch to a carbon frame and drop 1 or 2 pounds of bike weight, I'll undoubtedly go faster...I think it's all bull****.

    I'M THE ENGINE - the bike is merely a materialization of my efforts. If I can't push a 21pound steel bike up a hill, I sure as hell won't push that 17pounder up the hill any easier.

    I am, however, a total Kent Eriksen titanium fanboy. I have a slush fund for a custom frame for when I stop growing.
    Leaving them in the dust with a steel bike doesn't shut them up? In my experience, it does

  20. #20
    Anachronist.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Albany, NY
    My Bikes
    1981 Schwinn Le Tour, 2010 Motobecane Sprint
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What about power transfer? How much efficiency would I be losing going from aluminum bonded to carbon over to a lugged steel setup? I have ridden old steel bikes(good ones, not just my Schwinn), and I have noticed a definite loss in efficiency going from my modern bike to a lugged steel frame. I figure that if it is apparent at my low level that it will become worse as time passes by.

    If the difference between a bike like the Masi and my Motobecane(or similar bike with aluminum construction and carbon seatstays) is only like 5-10% it's really not a big deal, but if it's like 60% that would be a downgrade even though I like the aesthetics of the Steel bike WAY better.

    Note: I wouldn't toss the lugged steel fork, but I would probably wind up using my carbon fork on the steel frame anyways.
    '81 Schwinn Le Tour, '74 Schwinn Continental

  21. #21
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    WA state
    Posts
    4,816
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't think there's any loss in actual efficiency just because of the frame flexing. You're turning the cranks which are directly linked to the rear wheel, if the frame flexes that's just something it does, I don't think it's significant. The weight and handling (handling being a function of the fork and geometry mainly) are the major differences IMO.

  22. #22
    Senior Member rothenfield1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Montereyish
    Posts
    2,326
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mazdaspeed View Post
    I don't think there's any loss in actual efficiency just because of the frame flexing. You're turning the cranks which are directly linked to the rear wheel, if the frame flexes that's just something it does, I don't think it's significant. The weight and handling (handling being a function of the fork and geometry mainly) are the major differences IMO.
    I would respectfully disagree with you about frame flex. If I could get my younger legs back and took going fast seriously, I would want the stiffest bike I could stand. The energy lost through a flexing frame may not be very noticeable, but it is still real. I like steel frames because comfort is more important to me these days. But, I still ride my aluminum frame with carbon fork more than any other bike. I've never ridden a carbon frame, so I can't comment on them.
    Half of the time I fear I may not know what the hell Iím doing; the other half, Iím sure of it.

  23. #23
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    WA state
    Posts
    4,816
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rothenfield1 View Post
    I would respectfully disagree with you about frame flex. If I could get my younger legs back and took going fast seriously, I would want the stiffest bike I could stand. The energy lost through a flexing frame may not be very noticeable, but it is still real. I like steel frames because comfort is more important to me these days. But, I still ride my aluminum frame with carbon fork more than any other bike. I've never ridden a carbon frame, so I can't comment on them.
    I agree with you, I just don't think the difference is significant enough for most people (even racers) to wring their hands over. Ultimately the stronger rider will prevail but at higher levels when competition is more... well... competitive every advantage counts.

  24. #24
    Anachronist.
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Albany, NY
    My Bikes
    1981 Schwinn Le Tour, 2010 Motobecane Sprint
    Posts
    298
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    No, it doesn't matter much over a mile, or even ten miles. Let's say you're riding hard for 50 miles though, and it's the last 12.5 miles of a metric century and you're riding a bike where the power transfer is like 10% less efficient(which would be a lot, but it's a hypothetical). By the time you've gotten to that point you have lost 10% of the reserve power you would otherwise have had. You'd feel that. I mean sure, your body would adjust over time to the lesser efficiency, but why take a loss you don't have to?
    '81 Schwinn Le Tour, '74 Schwinn Continental

  25. #25
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    WA state
    Posts
    4,816
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    It's not even close to a 10% difference though. Like I said most of your energy is going directly to the chain which turns the wheel. The biggest difference is going to be the aerodynamics (which mainly depends on the riding position) then the weight. If you're that worried about outright performance there's absolutely no reason to go with a steel bike, however, the stiffness thing is much less significant than you think.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •