Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-10-11, 02:56 PM   #1
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Name that vintage touring bike

A mystery. My bets are Nishiki or Takara, but can find no proof. What I have is:

Lugged Champion No.5 PG frame with three bottle mounts, and full rack mounts F/R and threaded fender mounts in rear, no chrome
Diacomp 981 brakes
Suntour ARX derailuers with top of the down tube mount shifters
Std. SR stem/rando bars
Serial # HE87496
Cream color with burgundy head tube
Forged Suntour dropouts
Sugino GT triple cranks
Suzue LF 36H hubs laced to Araya non-hoked bead alloy rims, 5-speed suntour freewheel
Hatta headset

No stickers at all (or sign it ever had any).

Suntour derailuers are date coded ZC (1983 vintage) and the brakes are 5583 (1983).

It is a darn nice 1984ish bike sans the PG tubes.

Pictures:













I am beginning to wonder if it is a custom of some sort. The rack bosses on the seat stays are way out of alignment (5th photo) the right is toed 10 degrees in, the left is 10-degrees toed-out; almost like they put them on the wrong side.

Thanks!!
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."

Last edited by balindamood; 05-10-11 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Added pictures
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-11, 03:05 PM   #2
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 10,073
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
It seems like just about every Japanese mfg had a canti-equipped touring bike in the early 80s: Shogun, Miyata, Univega, Panasonic/Schwinn, Nishiki, Takara, Fuji. But I'll be only a couple used Tange Champion no. 5 tubing. The last bike I had with that tubing was a Sekai (though it wasn't a tourer).

Neal
nlerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-11, 03:10 PM   #3
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
What is odd to me is the number of brase-ons and drop-outs are inconsistant with a lower lever bike (usually the lower the cost, the fewer the brase-ons, especialy with touring bikes). This one has it all, including the more pricey 981 canti's, but the tubing. Why? Must have been built for armagedon.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-11, 03:58 PM   #4
GrayJay
Senior Member
 
GrayJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Looks as if #5 is likely seamless CrMo that is strait gauge (unbutted) 0.9mm tubing. Is it a 26.6mm seatpost? If it is not Hi-tensile, it might actualy be a decent quality (but heavy) frame.The thick tubing might have been a "feature" intended for adding stiffness to a loaded touring bike. If you are hauling 40lbs of gear in panneers, the extra weight of the frame would be inconsequential but the extra stiffness would be much appreciated. I did a loaded tour on butted 531 frame years ago, I could easily shake the bike and make make the frame wiggle like a limp noodle when it was loaded, rather unnerving.
GrayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-11, 04:27 PM   #5
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Seat post is a Sugino 26.4. I am thinking the heavier frame is a good thing for loaded touring, but this beast is inconsistant with all other things I can find coming from Japan in 1984. The PG stuff generally had few if any brase-ons. Tha is why I am rather curius about it. It does have Hi-Ten fork.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."

Last edited by balindamood; 05-10-11 at 04:38 PM.
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-11, 11:33 PM   #6
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Pictures added above.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 05:05 AM   #7
wrk101
DRF aka Thrifty Bill
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The NC Mountains
Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue, 87 Cimarron, 14 frame school custom, 73 Paramount
Posts: 19,976
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
+1 Champion 5 tended to go on lower end bikes. I have never seen a touring bike built out of that tubing, I have always seen higher grades of tubing.

There's a separate thread on Nishiki serial numbers, but I do not think this is a Nishiki.
wrk101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 10:26 AM   #8
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
At this point, I do not think it is a 1984 Nishiki, Centurion, Fuji, Panasonic, Univega, Sekai, shogun or Miyata. I am not sure about Takara or KHS. I am beginning to suspect that it may be a 1970's bike that was "upgraded" 1984. The lugs and wheels seem older than the drivetrain and brakes.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 02:43 PM   #9
realestvin7 
Large Member
 
realestvin7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tejas
Bikes:
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's a neat frame, whatever it is.
__________________
Build a drop bar do-it-all MTB!
For Sale / Trade:
1970's? Santa Maria F/F - Italian - 57cm ST/56cm TT
1988 Cannondale SM1000 MTB F/F 20" ST/ 56cm TT
Kuwahara Puma MTB F/F - 19" ST/56cm TT
Trek 7000 MTB F/F -17" ST/55cm TT
Alpine MTB F/F - 23" ST/59cm TT
Ross Hi-Tech MTB F/F - 20" - 21" ST/57cm TT
Peugeot PR10 Road F/F - 62.5cm ST/60cm TT
realestvin7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 06:34 PM   #10
BlankCrows
Avenir Equipped
 
BlankCrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Bikes: Chesini X-Uno, etc.....
Posts: 1,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I don't think a 1970's frame would have that braze-on on the top of the down tube for those Suntour Symmetric shifters. Didn't those Symmetrics debut in the 1980's?

Last edited by BlankCrows; 05-11-11 at 06:48 PM.
BlankCrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 06:53 PM   #11
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 10,073
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
^ Yup, those symmetric shifters are very 80s.

Neal
nlerner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 07:12 PM   #12
BlankCrows
Avenir Equipped
 
BlankCrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Bikes: Chesini X-Uno, etc.....
Posts: 1,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
The dropouts fore and aft have only one set of eyelets. Maybe that could've been gotten away with on a secondary level touring rig.

Centurion bikes have that head tube panel painted a different color. Perhaps a early Elite GT or a predecessor to it?

Or, with the tubing stickers being the only survivors, maybe it is a touring effort by a lessor manufacturer who had really cheap decals with their name and model on them.

Last edited by BlankCrows; 05-11-11 at 07:24 PM.
BlankCrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 09:11 PM   #13
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I thought about an Elite GT, but they came out in '84 and this is not one. All period Japanese touring bikes of that period that I can find any details on all have butted tubes. The lugwork looks like it is out of the 70's, but I agree about the symetric shifter mount. Maybe a Marushi? Maybe T-Mar will check in sometime and look at this thread.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 09:15 PM   #14
TireLever-07
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Malden, MA.
Bikes: 1994 Schwinn Passage, 2010 Masi, 2014 Specialized Crossroads
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The fork low rider mounts became available,, 1982,83-ish. Looks like a wide range triple crankset instead of the once popular half step plus granny crankset. I'd say its not a Centurion Pro Tour,nor a Raleigh, Schwinn or Peugeot. No headbadge remains? Chris
TireLever-07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 09:23 PM   #15
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
No sign of it ever having decals. I do not know why someone would bother with the serial number if it were a custom job. It definately seems Japanese, but it may be early Tiawan.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 09:36 PM   #16
realestvin7 
Large Member
 
realestvin7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tejas
Bikes:
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I, too, thought about Maryuishi. Probably not SR.
__________________
Build a drop bar do-it-all MTB!
For Sale / Trade:
1970's? Santa Maria F/F - Italian - 57cm ST/56cm TT
1988 Cannondale SM1000 MTB F/F 20" ST/ 56cm TT
Kuwahara Puma MTB F/F - 19" ST/56cm TT
Trek 7000 MTB F/F -17" ST/55cm TT
Alpine MTB F/F - 23" ST/59cm TT
Ross Hi-Tech MTB F/F - 20" - 21" ST/57cm TT
Peugeot PR10 Road F/F - 62.5cm ST/60cm TT
realestvin7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-11, 09:41 PM   #17
southpawboston 
Senior Member
 
southpawboston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Somerville, MA and Catskill Mtns
Bikes:
Posts: 4,008
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Could be early Taiwan, I suppose, but it has all the hallmarks of early-mid Japanese. All the braze-ons point to about 1983-1985. And the lugset, dropouts, and all the little brazed-on bits like RD cable stop and brake cable guides seem to be Tange. The only weird braze ons are the low rider mounts, which do not seem typical for early 80s Tange. Are you sure the DOs are Suntour? They look just like Tange DOs, but maybe they are similar enough that I just can't discern the differences.

Both of my Shoguns had the identical rack mounts on the inside face of the seatstays (and they weren't aligned well, either!), and my 1984 1500 had the same M5 threaded fork crown hole (which is too small to take a brake bolt, which is not needed with the cantis anyway). The threaded fender bosses on the bridges are a really nice touch, and my 1985 Shogun 2000 had them, but my 1500 did not. The 1500 had the same glued-on polished chainstay protector, but the 2000 did not. Both models had Tange 2 DB main tubes (9/6/9), and took 26.8 seat posts. Neither bike had the nice rear dropout adjusters.

Strange that it has a Hatta headset-- both my Shoguns had Tange headsets.

So, it's a strange specimen you have, for sure! For what it's worth, I've always thought that my Shoguns bore an uncanny resemblance to Kuwaharas, so I sort of assumed they were built by them and given Shogun serial #s.

It would be interesting to see what your bare frame and fork weigh. Both of my Shogun frames weighed in at about 5.5-6 lb for the frame alone, and 2 lb for the fork.

Those Suzue hubs are sealed cartridge hubs, right? The ones I had spun so smoothly...
__________________
Velo Lumino - Lighting components and integration solutions for fine hand-built and classically inspired bicycles

Riding the Catskills blog

Flickr

1971 Mercian Olympic | 1972 Jeunet 630 | 1982 Jack Taylor Tour of Britain | 1984 Shogun 1500 650B | 2013 Rawland Stag | 2014 Jeff Lyon L'Avecaise | 2015 Bike Friday Haul-a-Day

Last edited by southpawboston; 05-11-11 at 09:49 PM.
southpawboston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 12:54 AM   #18
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I did an initital look at Kuwaharas, and have not found anything similar, though there is not alot of info on them. The hubs are the standard non-sealed version. I think you are correct about the dropouts. I have scraped the paint off of them and do not see the standard Suntour markings. The rear (single) eyelets are also a bit different than what I am used to seeing on Suntours and Shimanos.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."

Last edited by balindamood; 05-12-11 at 12:58 AM.
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 01:36 AM   #19
GrayJay
Senior Member
 
GrayJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Comparing to this bike at;
http://luxlow.com/uncategorized/terr...road-bike-450/
There are a few intriguing similarities (but yours is probably older and more setup for loaded touring). Might be that your bike was also sold as a house-brand bike by a shop (or unbranded) rather than as an established brand.
GrayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 02:22 AM   #20
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Dropouts are similar. Spec level looks the same. The lugs are different, and my bike never had a riveted-headbadge. Dunno. If I could just find a brand that the serial number sequence matched, then I might know where to look.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 07:31 AM   #21
southpawboston 
Senior Member
 
southpawboston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Somerville, MA and Catskill Mtns
Bikes:
Posts: 4,008
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by balindamood View Post
I did an initital look at Kuwaharas, and have not found anything similar, though there is not alot of info on them. The hubs are the standard non-sealed version. I think you are correct about the dropouts. I have scraped the paint off of them and do not see the standard Suntour markings. The rear (single) eyelets are also a bit different than what I am used to seeing on Suntours and Shimanos.
I have an early 80s Tange catalog. There are about 3-4 different forged DO options in the catalog, and yours matches one of them. The rears should be unmarked, and the fronts should be marked "Tange XX", xx being a two-letter code. It's cast in the DO along where the skewer binds.

The reason I suspect my Shoguns were made by Kuwahara is that I once saw a Nishika tourer whose frame was a dead ringer for one of my Shoguns-- in just about every possible way, and it had a "made by Kuwahara" sticker on it.
__________________
Velo Lumino - Lighting components and integration solutions for fine hand-built and classically inspired bicycles

Riding the Catskills blog

Flickr

1971 Mercian Olympic | 1972 Jeunet 630 | 1982 Jack Taylor Tour of Britain | 1984 Shogun 1500 650B | 2013 Rawland Stag | 2014 Jeff Lyon L'Avecaise | 2015 Bike Friday Haul-a-Day
southpawboston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 10:40 AM   #22
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
The thing that I cannot match, with ANY 1984 Japanese bike, are the lugs. The lug work looks like nearly every production level bike out of Japan up to about 1980. They seemed to evolve after that to the shorter, thinner lugs which we are all familiar with, but these are the older, thicker longer ones. I think the reason the seat-stay rack mounts are off is that they were put on AFTER the rear triangle was brased (that is the only reason I can figure for their off-centerness). I cannot believe that any of the major Japanese maunfactureres would do something so pedestrian as late as 1984. If it was a garage-style custom, why the production type serial number clearly stamped in a production-like manner?

This bike is simply dumbfounding. I cannot even decide to build it up or get it re-painted.
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 10:44 AM   #23
realestvin7 
Large Member
 
realestvin7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Tejas
Bikes:
Posts: 2,733
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Those colors scream Centurion, but we've already ruled that out, right?
__________________
Build a drop bar do-it-all MTB!
For Sale / Trade:
1970's? Santa Maria F/F - Italian - 57cm ST/56cm TT
1988 Cannondale SM1000 MTB F/F 20" ST/ 56cm TT
Kuwahara Puma MTB F/F - 19" ST/56cm TT
Trek 7000 MTB F/F -17" ST/55cm TT
Alpine MTB F/F - 23" ST/59cm TT
Ross Hi-Tech MTB F/F - 20" - 21" ST/57cm TT
Peugeot PR10 Road F/F - 62.5cm ST/60cm TT
realestvin7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 10:44 AM   #24
BlankCrows
Avenir Equipped
 
BlankCrows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Bikes: Chesini X-Uno, etc.....
Posts: 1,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Maruishi had similar head tube paneling in that era, but they typically used generic tubing decals, and the fork crown would have kangaroos engraved on it. Here are some Maruishi catalog pages, I think from 1984. Your rig is similar to the TA15.
BlankCrows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-11, 11:53 AM   #25
balindamood 
Wrench Savant
Thread Starter
 
balindamood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 61 Degrees North
Bikes: www.2nd-cycles.com
Posts: 2,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Your rig is similar to the TA15.
Braze-ons, tubing, lugs, and components don;t match. I have ruled out Maruishi. I am not trying to research SR, and on an outside chance, maybe an Araya (though they usually did a much better lug-job than this).
__________________
"Where you come from is gone;
where you are headed weren't never there;
and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it."
balindamood is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:28 PM.