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  1. #1
    Senior Member dynne's Avatar
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    Cranks/BB for 1980 Masi?

    Just looking for advice and direction regarding the final pieces of a C&V Italian-American project. I've built up most of a 1980 Masi Gran Crit with a relatively modern 105 group. What's left is picking the crankset and BB.

    I'd like to stick with 105 to match, but I have concerns regarding the Italian threading. I picked up a Shimano UN 54? square taper to try to get away with 600EX cranks, but it just doesn't jive.

    Does Shimano make a road double crankset and BB that wont conflict with the Italian threading and look appropriate with what's already installed? Don't need to keep the UN 54, but it'd be nice to save the money.

    As always, I greatly appreciate the collective advice of C&V. I'm really excited to finish this bike, the weather is finally getting warmer in MA, and there are hills to be climbed.
    Can't stop this ride.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Some Italian-style bikes were supplied with Shimano gruppos, so I think it should be possible to dig out a Shimano Italian-threaded BB. You really just need to buy Italian threading, and they were made. The UN54 is a fine product. I really doubt their durability is as good as that of a Campy Record BB of the day that is in excellent internal condition, and that you keep maintained. I know the recent Shimanos I've set up do not run as smooth as do the Campys I've worked on. Now Shimano loose-ball BBs I think are truly excellent, but still not quite as smooth as a Campy Record.

    It's not like some sort of malice prevented Shimano from providing Italian, it was just a business. But what would have been provided new was a full Campy Nuovo Record or Super Record gruppo, not Shimano. Now to just get something decent to ride (and this should be it!!), get some good parts on there, and 105 is not a bad choice. But there's no way it can be seen as an original setup. 600 could have been available in 1980, but not all versions - Shimano had a lot of cosmetic evolutions in those days.

    My 1980 Masi GC came with 120 mm rear spacing, and I had it cold-set to 126. 130 would be too far, in my opinion. I run it with NR 7-speed friction.

    I love vintage bikes, but I understand the practicality of running what you got or can get. I really believe that the best choice for this bike is a Campagnolo Nuovo Record crankset and BB. Why not get the full vintage Masi experience? You bought a Masi frame, not a Trek.
    Last edited by Road Fan; 05-11-11 at 10:05 PM.

  3. #3
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    "The full vintage Masi experience" I Like that.
    As a multiple Masi owner I basically agree, Masi stationary used to even have "Preferred components, Campagnolo".

    Now around 1980 Masi World Wide, or High Country Imports, the managers of the brand in the USA back then offered Edco as an alternative, headsets and bottom brackets from the Swiss maker.

  4. #4
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
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    So I'll be the guy to say this...Shimano 105 does not belong on this bike. I have no problem with using Japanese parts with Italian steeds...I'm not a purist...but 105? On a Masi?

  5. #5
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    I sort of agree with Aron but to each his own. also as others said you should not have too much trouble finding a shimano Italian BB to amtch a 105 crank. you can always us a Phil

    what year is your Masi? are you sure it is Italian? or just assuming it is because Masi is Italain? or thought to be Italian
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  6. #6
    Senior Member dynne's Avatar
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    Sorry to go AWOL after posting, busy day. Also, I appreciate everyone's input so far.

    It's a 1980 Masi Gran Crit, serial number and shop owner both reveal it was built in Cali, so technically it's not an Italian bike, but it's a gorgeous frame and I would love to do it justice in both cosmetics and functionality. It's definitely a little beat, but the geo is perfect for me, and I'm in love. I don't know where to get old Campy parts except for ebay and even then, I wouldn't know what good condition or price would be, which is why I inquired here. In a perfect world, it would have Barcons or Ergo's, but that can wait.

    I was hoping I might be able to get suggestions on where and what to buy. For now, I'm on somewhat of a budget until I can unload some bike parts, perhaps including this 105 group. I also have the rest of the 600EX group, which is Campy-eqsue

    Should I register and dig through the for sale thread?
    Last edited by dynne; 05-12-11 at 04:49 PM. Reason: added picture
    Can't stop this ride.

  7. #7
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    yes you should there are good bargins to be had.

    but do you have english or Italian bb shell? also since riding is the most important part of cycling just finish the bike with what you ahve and ride it. then if you like the way it rides you can slowly upgrade over time.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    yes you should there are good bargins to be had.

    but do you have english or Italian bb shell? also since riding is the most important part of cycling just finish the bike with what you ahve and ride it. then if you like the way it rides you can slowly upgrade over time.
    The BB shell and steerer are Italian threaded, you have to go to the Haro era for English threading.
    The most effective way to obtain a Campagnolo group will be from a donor bike, look for a good condition outlier sized, (small or large) Italian bike to draw from, you will get perhaps all you need. They do show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    The BB shell and steerer are Italian threaded, you have to go to the Haro era for English threading.
    The most effective way to obtain a Campagnolo group will be from a donor bike, look for a good condition outlier sized, (small or large) Italian bike to draw from, you will get perhaps all you need. They do show up.
    Almost always the best route.

    I just purchased a garage full of Campy goodies, including this very nice Chris Kvale.



    The Campy Chorus gruppo is headed for my John Hollands this weekend.

    The Kvale frameset to a new home, but not mine though, as I recently purchased a Kvale in my size.

    If you can find a frameset that isn't uniquely proportioned, like this one, it will improve your chances with the impending frame sale.
    Last edited by gomango; 05-14-11 at 08:55 PM.

  10. #10
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    is it me, no cocktails just yet, or does that Kvale look real longish? the ST angle looks real slack

    Haro era? I did not know Haro owned Masi.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  11. #11
    Senior Member dynne's Avatar
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    Never thought of the donor bike. Brilliant. Would just convert leftover frame into a SS and sell it to recoup costs.

    Will build up with what I have tonight, then upgrade over time.

    BB shell is Italian, 100% sure, just put one in there. Don't think steer tube also is, at least I hope!
    Can't stop this ride.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gomango View Post
    Almost always the best route.

    I just purchased a garage full of Campy goodies, including this very nice Chris Kvale.



    The Campy Chorus gruppo is headed for my John Hollands this weekend.

    The Kvale frameset to a new home, but not mine though, as I recently purchased a Kvale in my size.

    If you can find a frameset that isn't uniquely proportioned, like this one, it will improve your chances with the impending frame sale.
    If Solveg or East Hill were still around, they'd be all over that! NICE! But that Campy is too new for that Masi.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    is it me, no cocktails just yet, or does that Kvale look real longish? the ST angle looks real slack

    Haro era? I did not know Haro owned Masi.
    I'm pretty sure all the new Masis of the past 5 years or so are from Haro. I don't know the exact year they got cranked up.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    The BB shell and steerer are Italian threaded, you have to go to the Haro era for English threading.
    The most effective way to obtain a Campagnolo group will be from a donor bike, look for a good condition outlier sized, (small or large) Italian bike to draw from, you will get perhaps all you need. They do show up.
    Exactly so. I've always thought of California Masis as Italian-style. Nothing about them was done, at least in the first 8 years or so, that was not as Faliero had taught - at least that's my story. We can (probably will) argue about whether '70s circa US Masis are better or more valueble than Italian, but ... so what.

  15. #15
    Is a real super guy. Henry III's Avatar
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    You hear Campy and you think it's expensive but you could build a Nuovo Record group for a decent price. I've got a beatup old Schwinn World Sport that's getting even getting Campy stuff. Just because I can come across a lot easier and fairly cheap. I picked up an almost complete NR/SR group for $200 last month and included wheels and a set of NOS SR rings. Even piecing the stuff together won't be all that much. If you wanted to be different and still not have to resort to Shimano. You could put Zeus stuff on it as another member listed up a bunch of stuff in the FS forum.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    Exactly so. I've always thought of California Masis as Italian-style. Nothing about them was done, at least in the first 8 years or so, that was not as Faliero had taught - at least that's my story. We can (probably will) argue about whether '70s circa US Masis are better or more valueble than Italian, but ... so what.
    I think the "Cinelli" crown used on the approx. 1978 to 1983 bikes was a step away from what Faliero would have done, maybe approved, not used by the Vigorelli for sure. Save that, they kept pretty close to the original concept. Clearances got reduced a tad for short reach brakes, the dropouts selected were the latest type, they adopted recessed brake mounting but remained pretty faithful. The later Henry James lug set was I think a poor sidestep, no finesse. Functionally they are fine, just clunky. The later cast seat stay top eyes were a nod to keep the costs down and for a time were shared with Italy, fortunately the bikes throughout the American adventure were more than plug, braze and paint.

    And yes, "so what", collect both and own both sides of the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    is it me, no cocktails just yet, or does that Kvale look real longish? the ST angle looks real slack

    Haro era? I did not know Haro owned Masi.
    Yes it is.

    54 X 57 will do that.

    The gentleman that ordered the frame was all torso.

    Less than a 30" inseam.

    The point is though, the gruppo is going to be dirt cheap when I sell the frame.

    This 9 speed Chorus gruppo wouldn't do for the op's Masi, but will look/function great on my mid-90's Hollands.

    ....and the real point is to score the donor bike and sell off what you don't need to complete the original build to keep your costs under control.

    Doesn't hurt, there are two sets of Campy Aero Record pedals and various Cinelli stems in the boxes.

    BTW This bike came with a Campy Record titanium seatpost and an aero Chorus in an original box!

  18. #18
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gomango View Post
    Almost always the best route.

    I just purchased a garage full of Campy goodies, including this very nice Chris Kvale.





    The Campy Chorus gruppo is headed for my John Hollands this weekend.

    The Kvale frameset to a new home, but not mine though, as I recently purchased a Kvale in my size.

    If you can find a frameset that isn't uniquely proportioned, like this one, it will improve your chances with the impending frame sale.
    Oh my!

    Campagnolo 9 speed is a very beautiful and under appreciated group.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repechage View Post
    I think the "Cinelli" crown used on the approx. 1978 to 1983 bikes was a step away from what Faliero would have done, maybe approved, not used by the Vigorelli for sure. Save that, they kept pretty close to the original concept. Clearances got reduced a tad for short reach brakes, the dropouts selected were the latest type, they adopted recessed brake mounting but remained pretty faithful. The later Henry James lug set was I think a poor sidestep, no finesse. Functionally they are fine, just clunky. The later cast seat stay top eyes were a nod to keep the costs down and for a time were shared with Italy, fortunately the bikes throughout the American adventure were more than plug, braze and paint.

    And yes, "so what", collect both and own both sides of the argument.
    My 1980 has the Fischer crown (not sure what "Cinelli" means as opposed to Cinelli), fits nutted medium reach NR brakes, and my lugs look exactly like those on the '70s models, including early '70s. The time frame I was talking about is in my mind 74 through 82, though I really don't know much about anything later than 1980. You seem to be generalizing; maybe you could point to some photographed examples on the Masi timeline or links on Bob Hovey's site, to illustrate what you're talking about.

    Configurations did vary even under Faliero. It's part of Hovey's dating information.

    There were also models other than the Gran Criterium in the mid-80s, and contract builders. Are these what you're talking about?

  20. #20
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    Per Bob Hovey's site, the Cinelli sloping crown started appearing on Cali GC's in 1978, and was superseded by the (clunky, I concur) Henry James crown. Doesn't mean there weren't exceptions - yours appears to be one of them (as is my '81 Prestige, which has the Fischer crown rather than the Microfusione cast version that predominated by then). But I agree with repechage that the Cinelli crown is a real deviation from the Faliero style.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    What rear spacing was normal back then? Mine came with 120.

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    Back to the op, do you need a Shimano bottom bracket to get this beauty on the road?


    We might have something at the house here.

  23. #23
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Back to the Op part II...

    Italian threaded Shimano BB's are readily available.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  24. #24
    Senior Member dynne's Avatar
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    Argh, I really need to be better about checking this site.

    As of right now, I'm still on the fence about how to complete this build. A fellow forum member who is also a neighbor of mine mentioned having a NR crankset and RD he would be willing to sell, so that's an option to pursue. But, when all is said and done, I don't particularly want to run downtube friction shifting. It's just my personal riding preference. I appreciate friction shifting via the bar-end shifters on my tourer, and it's amazing being able to go up and down an entire cassette so smoothly. I suppose it's possible trying a bike with full NR might change my mind.

    The ultimate goal for the bike is for racing. In the end, it will have brifters/ergos/STIs or whatever you prefer to call them. So if I'm not going to stay truly era-appropriate, I don't understand why it would be weird to put 105 on the bike. The "Masi" experience is the quality of the frame, not the components, right? If Faliero himself had built it, I think I would feel differently (I also probably wouldn't have been lucky enough to get my hands on one!)

    For now, I'm riding with what I've got, and holy crap, it's a rocket-ship!
    Can't stop this ride.

  25. #25
    Senior Member oldbobcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynne View Post

    Does Shimano make a road double crankset and BB that wont conflict with the Italian threading and look appropriate with what's already installed? Don't need to keep the UN 54, but it'd be nice to save the money.
    Sure, but what's wrong with the UN54? Granted, it won't last like well maintained classic Record, but when it craps out you can buy another one for twenty bucks.

    Masi Gran Criteriums were made in California in 1980 and many racers equipped them with Shimano. Mine has the full Super Record treatment (except for Look pedals), but that's because I was a Campy snob in 1980.

    Keep the rear dropout spacing to 126mm, though.

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