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Old 05-12-11, 07:55 PM   #1
Grand Bois
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Campagnolo used pot metal?

I picked this up from a current eBay auction of a broken second generation Rally:

To quote an online review, this apparently is a known defect for this otherwise great part, modified quotation follows: The Rally 3450 derailleur seems to have been introduced in late 1974, about the same time that the prototype Super Record was made. The upper spring-loaded Shimano-style upper body is made from pot-metal with a thin chrome plating. The early Rally's also had a thinner "neck" below the upper spring...the derailleur broke here due to the porous pot-metal, and the "neck" was made thicker in roughly mid-1975.

I've been trying to buy one of these for months, but now I'm not sure I want one.
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Old 05-12-11, 08:45 PM   #2
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At some point, Jon will add my photos to the VeloBase on the differences between the first versions of the Rally.

The very first iteration did have a "skinny neck". I thought they only broke in crashes, but would be curious to hear if they ever really did break in use. Still, the neck was beefed up in the second iteration – still the first version – of the derailleur. I have one of each, photos below, but if you still hunting I would suggest looking for the second iteration.

First iteration:


Second (of First version):


Back to back:


AND, the beauty, Version Three:


Cheers!
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Old 05-12-11, 08:58 PM   #3
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I dislike "pot metal" (cast zinc); its heavy, corrodes easily, and is quite soft. Be careful using very strong degreasers around un-plated pot metal as it can cause corrosion.
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Old 05-12-11, 09:10 PM   #4
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Oh.....nice. There were two Rallies up for auction on ebay just a week ago. Glad I didn't bid. That's some expensive pot metal someone else has, now.
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Old 05-12-11, 09:19 PM   #5
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Excellent. On the authority of some Ebay seller, Campy Rally derailleurs are constructed of pot metal?

If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.

I don't actually need another one, but with the market about to crash, it may be a time to stock up.

Thanks!
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1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
(replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)
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Old 05-13-11, 05:24 AM   #6
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Excellent pics Leicalad. You take those with a Summarit-S ?
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Old 05-13-11, 06:23 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by LeicaLad View Post
If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.
I was going to say GB's post it a stroke of brilliance, intended to depress the market just long enough that he can buy one at a reduced cost!
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Old 05-13-11, 07:34 AM   #8
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eBay listing and now this forum, that's two sources on the Internet... It's biblical now.

And you can have my one Rally when I die.
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Old 05-13-11, 07:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LeicaLad View Post
Excellent. On the authority of some Ebay seller, Campy Rally derailleurs are constructed of pot metal?

If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.

I don't actually need another one, but with the market about to crash, it may be a time to stock up.

Thanks!
Did you notice the question mark in my thread title? I am seeking information, not sarcasm.
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Old 05-13-11, 07:59 AM   #10
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Pot Metal? I thought all Cmpagnolo components were hand milled from solid billit aluminum handed down byt the gods.

Grand Bois if I ever get my Hetchins built I may have an older style missing the pivot bolt we could discuss.

in refernece to 'pot metal' I am no Smitty nor trained in the arts of metalurgy but I would think the person you are quating my be making a general statement. he could also, possibly incorrectly, interchaning the term potmetal for cast, or casting.

I never gave much tought to wether these part were milled/machined from stock or canst and then milled. either way the only older Campi part I ever say broken were either simply worn out damaged by and accident or some other mishap ie hitting spoked.

well that be other than the known defective cranks and a few odd spindles, but I neve saw one of these spindles just heard the roumors.
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Old 05-13-11, 08:09 AM   #11
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The broken one on eBay has that missing pivot bolt.

I know they have a reputation for lackluster shifting, but nothing else really fits with the NR/SR parts and the triple on my PX10. The Suntour V-GT luxe on it now shifts well, but it's out of place and it bothers me every time I look at it.
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Old 05-13-11, 08:43 AM   #12
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Honestly, the NR style works better and has greater range...
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Old 05-13-11, 08:47 AM   #13
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Grand Bois,

First, absolutely no insult meant. A bit of tongue in cheek, at worst. You've been really helpful in direct responses to me in the past, and I remain very appreciative of that.

My comment was really to the "dog pile" effect that happens when suddenly a question becomes a conjecture becomes unequivocal fact. Obviously, not your fault.

As for shifting, I'm running my Rally on my 63 Hetchins with a Stronglight 93 (52/38) and a Shimano HG freewheel (12-28). It shifts as well as anything I've ever used. Keep in mind that I've never used anything newer than 1985.

I do have several other long cage derailleurs I could, maybe even "should" use. BUT, nothing looks as sweet as the Rally.

Whenever Norris L gets around to completing the refinish of my Hilton Wrigley that is still in his hands in Yorkshire, England, my 3rd gen Rally is going on it. Just 'cause it HAS to.

I think the weakness is over-stated, but I would keep an eye for the 2nd iteration of the first Rally, just in case.

RE: PHOTOS. My Leicas are all rangefinders, which are fabulous for certain applications. Macro really isn't one of them. I use a Canon G9, which has taken over 16,000 images in its lovingly abused life, for these sort of shots. Remarkable little box. The photos are nothing special. Get in close, try to have decent lighting, but these are mostly just on the floor in the living room.

Cheers.
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Old 05-13-11, 08:50 AM   #14
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Everything back then had lackluster shifting, that's what made shifting a skill.
The thing with the Rallys is you can take the long cage and put it on a NR/SR and get a RD that will handle some chain wrap, get you lower gears on the rear and create an almost bullet proof touring derailleur. That with a good triple and halfstep gearing was hard to beat.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:05 AM   #15
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But using the Rally cage on a NR/SR gives you a 2nd generation Rally. I've never heard anyone say that these (either the 2nd Gen OR the retro-fit NR/SR versions) shifted as well as either the 1st or 3rd versions of the real Rally. It always seemed a kludge, to me.

I'm open to hear from those who've done this, tho.
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1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
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Old 05-13-11, 09:10 AM   #16
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I have used both the slant design and the NR style design and the NR style works better and handles a larger range of gears.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:13 AM   #17
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Wow. Interesting. Can you explain or conjecture why? It wouldn't seem like it, from the design POV.

Happy to learn more. Thanks for your response.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:18 AM   #18
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The slant limits the size of the large cog, making the long cage almost unnecessary. I couldn't get one to run a 28 in the rear and a triple up front. I'm building another bike, and I'm going with a 34 in the rear. I think the NR style will run it.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:21 AM   #19
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Well, atleast I keep reading.....

I did a google search on identifying pot metals. There are differences in the metal characteristics that would help matters. Maybe if one of you guys have a busted Rally you could run some simple metal tests on?

One thing that comes to mind, after some quick reading, if you were to try and polish the pot metal, if it is pot metal, it will not shine up like cast aluminum since it's a different metal and reacts to the chemical in the polish differently.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:22 AM   #20
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Oh, and gram for gram, there will be a significant weight difference between one made with pot and the other with aluminum.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:29 AM   #21
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dbaki. Thanks. My plan is to put a triple-ized Campy and a wide range freewheel on my Hilton Wrigley. I'll find out if the 3rd Gen Rally works or not. I think a duopar would be my second choice.

Is anyone planning to bid on that broken one? (If not, I might, just to have one to test the metal on.)

Thook, I certainly won't sacrifice a good one. It's true that the metal of the 1st iteration looks different, but I'm not sure of exact metallurgy. I know more about bronze than this stuff.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:29 AM   #22
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Looks like some kind of die-cast zinc alloy pot metal to me.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:35 AM   #23
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The 3rd might work better, haven't had one. I think the NR style shifts as well as a NR (though some people think that's not very well) but I've been riding them for forty years, so it all seems normal to me.

I never thought about it, but that piece does look like pot metal...
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Old 05-13-11, 09:49 AM   #24
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dbaki. Thanks. My plan is to put a triple-ized Campy and a wide range freewheel on my Hilton Wrigley. I'll find out if the 3rd Gen Rally works or not. I think a duopar would be my second choice.

Is anyone planning to bid on that broken one? (If not, I might, just to have one to test the metal on.)

Thook, I certainly won't sacrifice a good one. It's true that the metal of the 1st iteration looks different, but I'm not sure of exact metallurgy. I know more about bronze than this stuff.
Where is the busted Rally on ebay? I mean, is it still up for auction as of right now?

IF you did get it, seems scratch/chip testing is a good way to tell. But, if you already have a 1st gen and a 2nd gen on hand, you could try polishing both with a little Mother's? The polish will turn dark on the aluminum, but nothing will happen on pot metal.....save maybe a little dirt/grease if there's any on there. Maybe clean them both, first? I don't know.........I'm just curious myself about this subject.
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Old 05-13-11, 09:58 AM   #25
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Did you notice the question mark in my thread title? I am seeking information, not sarcasm.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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