badger_biker 

I need to know if the terrible rear friction shifting on mid 70's Motobecane le Champion with Campy NR is an aberration or was it really that bad back in the day. I'm hoping someone has some ideas I can try to improve it.

I've flipped many a bike with bargain Suntour components that shifted a whole lot better and my Ross with Shimano Golden Arrow is much superior and has moved above the le champ in my pecking order of bikes to take for a ride.

I have to severely overshift to move up the FW. It often skips a cog and I have to go back down and fiddle to get the chain noise worked out. Even the down shifting is very touchy and doesn't drop cleanly like most friction derailleurs I've used did.

The bike and components have little wear and it has a Suntour Winner 6 spd FW with a Sedis chain in good shape. I don't know the model of the chain but it is silver (indicating a better grade) and is the same width as a Sram PC 850 8 speed chain I have.

I attempted to put on a 6 spd Shimano HG FW but it is too thick and there is no clearance on the dropout side for a chain to fit. The Winner has very narrow spacers and is at least a full cog narrower in thickness than the Shimano. I next thought about the chain being too wide but I would think an 8 speed width would be narrow enough for the Winner and a 12 spd transmission. Do you think a 9 speed chain would be something worth trying? I'm afraid it would lock between the front chainrings if it is too thin.

I really want to love this bike and get some serious miles on it but I find myself easily turning to other options when I grab something to head out on.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

ColonelJLloyd 

This will shortly turn into a Suntour vs. Campagnolo debacle, but before that happens I'll say that I don't think a 9sp chain is going to help you. An HG freewheel is a beautiful thing. Campagnolo friction shifters do not have a reputation for being stellar units. The only Nuovo Record RD equipped bike I've ridden shifted pretty well, even with the matching shifters. I believe it had a Regina freewheel. I recall that it was noisy; not chain chatter because it wasn't directly over the cog, but still it was noisy.

I'm assuming a SunRace 6sp freewheel would be the same width as the Shimano you tried, but if you could easily add a spacer and fit an HG freewheel it's bound to help.

Homebrew01

I run a 10 speed on a converted Cannondale, but with the original "5 speed" crankset .... works perfectly.

I was never impressed with Campy shifting, although I raced on it for years.

Bianchigirll 

is this your first or perhaps you first bike in a very long time with index? is anything bent? is the derailleur able to move freely on the attachment bolt?

CV-6 

Just a couple of thoughts. I find smooth shifting an NR to be a matter of practice that does include overshifting going up the cogs, so IME you are experiencing normal operation and may just need some practice. You may want to check the condition of your cable and also look at the housing running from the stay to the derailleur. Some housings have compression in them (length wise) and can cause some sloppy shifting. If you have a scrap of SIS cable, fit it in there and see if it helps. I am thinking your Suntour is an ultra model from the way you describe it. Your chain should be okay with it, but FWIW I do run 9 speed chain on a couple of my NR bikes with good results. An HG or even UG freewheel would probably help, if you are not opposed to respacing and redishing the wheel.

cpsqlrwn

Take two of these and call me in the morning. No over shifting necessary.

Chombi

Do I understand correctly that you have a Campagnolo NR RD on the bike?
If so, I am not surprised with the poorish shifting performance you are getting from it.
I ran an NR RD with Sedisport silver chain and Maillard "super" 6 spped 700 FW/cluster for a long time on my Peugeot and it did require much more overshifting to shift than all the other RD's I've used through the years. I just ended up getting used to the overshifting requirements of the NR RD and appreciated its otherwise solid reliability. The quickest solution for you, I suspect, would be to change over to another brand RD or to a later model Campagnolo with a slant parallelogram design. An HG FW will always help too.

Chombi

nlerner

On my two Campy NR-equipped bikes, I have SunTour bar-end shifters and found shifting performance to work just fine. So it could be those shift levers. And/or, as BG wrote, I'd check on the derailleur hanger and rear-end alignment.

Neal

Grand Bois

You have to overshift and then readjust after every shift with a NR. They say that it becomes automatic and you do it without thinking. Some people don't mind it. I do.

badger_biker 

Thanks for the responses thus far. To answer some of the questions:
Yes the RD, FD, and levers are all Campy NR and OEM for the bike.
No it isn't my first time back to friction in a while - I've been riding my Ross Signature quite a bit and other various bikes with friction I've had briefly in the last couple of years. I wish I had a Moto Sprint back that had Altus and was the best friction set up I've ever ridden.
Everything is straight in the back. I'll double check the attachment bolt for freedom tonight and lube though.

Some of the thoughts regarding the levers are interesting. I know the Suntour ratcheting is a nice plus for friction but I didn't think different levers would make much of a difference. I guess from some of your experiences it could.

The thing is that other than the wheels the bike is pretty much a time capsule and in very good shape and that is much of the reason I decided to keep it. I'm hesitant to replace anything and lose that.

I may give the 9spd chain a try. If that doesn't do much then maybe I'll consider the HG and related spacing and dishing. I know HG does make a huge difference.

Based on your comments stating that the overall performance I'm experiencing isn't far from the norm - I have a new appreciation for those who raced on it when it was new!

khatfull

Oh gawd....I'm not far from completing my first Campy bike...my Italvega...with full NR (except an SR seatpost ) It'd better be magic

CV-6 

The Simplex levers shown in cpsqlrwn's post are retro-friction, not ratcheting. They will help, but will not eliminate the problem. For your purposes, the banded version would be a period correct mod that many racers made to deal with just what you describe. The problem will be that the banded versions are harder to find and usually command a premium.

Velognome 

Since it's only on the up shift, could the leading edge of the teeth on the FW be worn so the chain doesn't climb until you've over shifted?

ColonelJLloyd 

True, but it's not hard to mount the braze-on version to a clamp.

rootboy 

Aww...those things were pure junk. I'd say ditch that bike....this direction. Yeah, they were never all that precise, they say. I suppose I just got used to it over the years and never minded. Seemed normal to me and fairly crisp on my bikes. Still, it should not be quite as bad as you describe. Try a new cable? Regina freewheel ? Spring in the RD shot?

Sixty Fiver

Found that the best way to improve an older Campy drive train is to replace the rear d with a Suntour Cyclone and call it a day... the Cyclone works well with Campy downtube shifters and requires less pull / travel than a Vx



Seriously... a Shimano freewheel will greatly improve the shifting performance. I run a Regina 7 speed with a Cyclone Mk2 and a KMC 8 speed SP chain and the shifting is great but not quite as nice as when I ran a Shimano block.

Regina CX freewheels have narrower cog spacing and the nicest thing is how they are so dead silent when you are riding.

khatfull

Ok sir, but suppose I was committed to keeping the NR RD and shifters....what ELSE can I do? I'll be using a Suntour 14-24 5 speed New Winner freewheel (nearly NOS), initially anyway. Anything else I can do to make the shifting as nice as possible?

Pars 

From the OP's description of the 6-speed Winner freewheel fitting, but the Shimano 6 speed not, it sounds like he is using an Ultra-spaced freewheel, which will fit on a 120mm spaced rear. Since it is narrower between cogs than a std. freewheel, maybe the Sedis chain he has is not meant for Ultra spacing? The PC850 should work on it. Otherwise, he could increase the rear axle to 126mm spacing and use the Shimano freewheel?

Bianchigirll 

I have never had NR but I did run a 980 gear for a bit. I don't believe it is as bad as the OP claims. I think it is perhaps a learning curve thing. looking at the OPs bikes it seems quite a few may be indexing.

going back in time on bikes is like going back in cars. just because you can shift your 6spd manual '03 Camero perfectly everytime does not mean you can perfectly shift a '70 Fiat Sport Spider 4spd lacking all the fancy syncro mesh stuff.

I think the OP should rid a bit more and concentrate on shifting rather than moving the lever

big chainring 

I really detest index shifting, 7+ speed "cassettes", barend shifters (brifters even more), and the thought that Campy NR derailleurs are sub-par performers. Is this the C&V forum?

Picchio Special

I agree - there seems to be a bit more going on than Campagnolo's well-documented mediocrity in this department. I've had numerous bikes with variations on the Campagnolo Record/NR/SR drivetrain theme (including a '72 Le Champion), and when well-adjusted, they haven't shifted as poorly as what the OP seems to be experiencing. Given Campagnolo's - ahem - well-documented mediocrity in this department, it's hard to suss out exactly what's going on. I think some attention to the chain and freewheel may be in order, as suggested.

Chombi

I never could stand the loud clack/clunk, clack/clunk noise from the early indexed shifting systems too.......... Kinda takes away a bit from the "art" of friction shifting which was a developed skill with finesse different from one system to another. It's like comparing the way one plays a violin to a....uhmmm.....Ukelele??.......

Chombi

Picchio Special

Also makes you think through your gear selection in advance, which is another lost art. You're more careful when you know you can't easily fix a mistake.

CV-6 

If you have the right clamp. From what I am told, those are kind of hard to find. I will have to dig up my notes on that procedure.

mazdaspeed

You could always sell the campy stuff and buy something that actually works, like shimano 600.