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  1. #1
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Frame ID Help - 60s french & italian parts

    Howdy folks... picked up a frame from a local flipper and the nervex? lugs caught my eye as well as the campy record hubs, so I got this mess for 80$... some decent parts for me to clean up at least... would like to rebuild the wheels with stainless spokes... never ridden tubulars before and the frame is a pretty close fit to boot.

    There is a lot of surface rust especially on the top tube and the chrome fork shows a lot of surface rust... otherwise the frame looks pretty decent, no dents or holes.

    A bit of searching the archives has the components being mid to late sixties... mostly the universal '61 brakes and the simplex derailleur has metal plates on the parellogram so that makes is a 67 at least, or so says disraeli gears


    Here's what hanging on the frame:
    universal 61 centrepulls
    stronglight crank
    campy record hubs laced to a fiamme (spelling?) tubular rims
    3TTT stem and bars
    freccia d'oro plastic saddle
    campy shifters, triplex FD and simplex RD
    the dropouts on the rear are simplex

    the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.

    Here are some pictures:
    mystery-3.jpg
    mystery-1.jpg
    mystery-2.jpg
    mystery-4.jpg

    Here's more pics in the flickr album if you want to zoom in... I can snap a few more pics if it'll help. Thanks for any thoughts on this bike you've got.

  2. #2
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    nice find.

    To me this is a late 1960s Peugeot PX10.
    Given Stronglight 93 crank is original to the bike it would be a PX10 from between ca. 1968 and 1970 (SL 93 apparently was introduced in late '67 or '68).
    Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:33 AM.
    sorry für the mistakes!

  3. #3
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    Did you see the picture of the bottom bracket? The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.

  4. #4
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    I am guessing the BB cutout is a W and that it is a Mexican Windsor
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Carerra-Sport

    The simplex RD was probably a later replacement. Check the BB threading to rule out french production.

  5. #5
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    Did you see the picture of the bottom bracket? The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.
    Maybe the fork was added later? I forget what the seatpost was measured at but I do remember the bars being 26mm

    I do remember the front lugs seem to have that reinforcement ridge that I saw in this thread. As well I did see an "F" punched in near the seatpost binder bolt.
    Last edited by clasher; 06-15-11 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
    I am guessing the BB cutout is a W and that it is a Mexican Windsor

    Not with Simplex dropouts and REAL Nervex lugs, especially fork crown and bottom bracket shell...

  7. #7
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    I was going to say PX10 with a fork swap. The BB shell had me scratching my head, but is that an actual cut-out, engraving, or just paint? Can't tell from the small pics.

  8. #8
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    I'm fairly certain it's not a cut-out rather a it feels like paint or more accurately a vinyl sticker but I'd have to attack with more than my stubby fingernail and I'm away from the bike right now.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    But there is a real cutout on the BB shell that is definitely not PX10. What is the diameter of that stem? The 26 mm bars would not fit a French stem.

  10. #10
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Check the OD of the seat tube: 28.0mm = French, possibly Belgian or Swiss; 28.6mm = everyone else.
    Check the width of the BB shell itself: 70mm = Italian; 68mm = everyone else.
    Alternatively, remove the adjustable cup lockring -- if it will slide over an ISO cup's threads, you have an Italian BB and probably an Italian bike. (I have never heard of Simplex dropouts on an Italian frame, but maybe others have.)
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by clasher View Post
    Howdy folks... picked up a frame from a local flipper and the nervex? lugs caught my eye as well as the campy record hubs, so I got this mess for 80$... some decent parts for me to clean up at least... would like to rebuild the wheels with stainless spokes... never ridden tubulars before and the frame is a pretty close fit to boot.

    There is a lot of surface rust especially on the top tube and the chrome fork shows a lot of surface rust... otherwise the frame looks pretty decent, no dents or holes.


    A bit of searching the archives has the components being mid to late sixties... mostly the universal '61 brakes and the simplex derailleur has metal plates on the parellogram so that makes is a 67 at least, or so says disraeli gears


    Here's what hanging on the frame:
    universal 61 centrepulls
    stronglight crank
    campy record hubs laced to a fiamme (spelling?) tubular rims
    3TTT stem and bars
    freccia d'oro plastic saddle
    campy shifters, triplex FD and simplex RD
    the dropouts on the rear are simplex

    the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.

    Here are some pictures:
    mystery-3.jpg
    mystery-1.jpg
    mystery-2.jpg
    mystery-4.jpg

    Here's more pics in the flickr album if you want to zoom in... I can snap a few more pics if it'll help. Thanks for any thoughts on this bike you've got.
    Wow! What a coincidence! See my post today - "Motobecane-Astra". As to your question about tubulars; IMO if they are properly mounted they are actually safer than clinchers. I love the feel of sew-ups. I wouldn't trust those in the photos. That's a very nice looking bike that deserves to be built up. You will love the ride of French bikes.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #12
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    Just a stab in the dark, but with the mix match of Italian and french parts I would guess it is not from one of those 2 countries. Maybe Swiss, Swedish or one of the Benelux countries. With the M or W possibly Mondia or Monark. Canada has at least 2 brands starting with M.

  13. #13
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    I don't think it's French, despite those Simplex DOs...that stem has to be 22.2 so it doesn't have a FR fork. Don't think Monark or Mondia, either...altered Nervex pro lugs seem British, if anything...but this is definitely a weirdo!

    Measure that seat post...that's what I want to know.

  14. #14
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    Maybe I am wrong (late 60s PX10).

    I have seen and worked on so many PX10s (like many of you) that for me - without checking exakt measurements of seatpost (should be 26,4 mm) etc. - this bike simply cries out PX10.

    Extent of chrome on rear chain-stays along with that one chromed RD's cablefixing in exactly the right position, shape of seat-stay tops (diameter ought to be 16 mm) and the way these are fixed to frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by clasher View Post
    ... chrome fork ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    ... The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.
    I agree, fork's shape is strange (very low amount of rake for 60s PX).
    Fully chromed forks are at least over here a characteristic of replacement forks (fit any bike's color).

    the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    But there is a real cutout on the BB shell that is definitely not PX10....
    I don't see a cutout in BB, but my eyes are weak, unfortunately.
    Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:34 AM.
    sorry für the mistakes!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    ... What is the diameter of that stem? The 26 mm bars would not fit a French stem.
    I have the same 3ttt-stem (60s "grand prix") on one of my bikes (22,0 + "italian" bar),

    http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...m=102&AbsPos=1 (-> 22,0 mm + 26,0 mm)

    plus stem could easily have been ground down from 22,2 to 22,0 mm (in earlier days I did it myself and from what I heard it's quite common at least here in Germany because of increasing rarity of french parts for the many Peugeots we have over here. Even worse, it could have been forced into fork by use of a hammer)

    Apart from measuring tubes (metric?), BB width, threads etc. a close-up view of BB's lower side would be helpful. 60s PX have 6 digits stamped into BB, seemingly executed by hand and often not very accurately (+ certain kind of numeral punches used).
    http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/s...ttom%20Bracket

    Again - I may be wrong!

    Exciting!
    Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:34 AM.
    sorry für the mistakes!

  16. #16
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    I'm revising my opinion: it could be French, also could be a replacement fork. We need more info (like measurements) and better detail pics!

  17. #17
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Okay, so the stem is an exact 22.20mm. The BB is 68mm wide buyt I can't get the cranks off (extractor is on the way). There are some discrepancies in the seatpost but it seems to be pretty close to 26.0mm... the seatstays are indeed 16mm.

    There aren't any numbers stamped into the BB and the W/M is just a thick sticker. I have a camera and the bike with me today so I can snap more pics if you it'll help, lemme know what you wanna see.

  18. #18
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    I just pulled the seatpost out and it's 26.0mm... surprised at how easy it slid out. It's an SR "melt forging" custom, whatever that means.


    CIMG2090 by clasher, on Flickr

    snapped a couple more pics... wiped away some grease and found a "nervex" stamp in the BB but no serials or anything. The clouds are out so it was hard to get a good shot of it.
    Last edited by clasher; 06-16-11 at 11:15 AM.

  19. #19
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Couple pics I'd like: close-up of the headlugs, specifically the "whale-tail" on the front of the lugs, if it has that. Close-up of the seat cluster...does it seem that the slot has been pinched at all? Reason I ask is that 26.2 or 26.4 would be typical for metric 531 seat tube, if 26.0 is the correct fit then this might have plain gauge tubing. Does this have the Stronglight BB with octagon shaped fixed cup? If so are there any grooves in the face of that cup?

  20. #20
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    Sorry if these aren't clear enough, I have to borrow a camera since I'm incapable of keeping them intact.


    CIMG2087 by clasher, on Flickr



    mystery bicycle by clasher, on Flickr
    Next time I get a camera I'll get a nice head-on shot, there isn't any evidence of a head badge or anything resembling decal remains.


    CIMG2091 by clasher, on Flickr
    It seems from this shot the fixed cup is the normal kind with two flats and circular edges... can't recall at this time. I can't get the crank off until my puller comes in the mail and the posties are on strike but I'll look tomorrow and see.
    Last edited by clasher; 06-16-11 at 10:36 PM. Reason: more details

  21. #21
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    thanks for added pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by clasher View Post
    I just pulled the seatpost out and it's 26.0mm... surprised at how easy it slid out....
    Finding a - seemingly aluminium - seatpost easy to pull out on a rusty bike like this arouses my suspicion. Typically aluminium ought to (nearly) be "welded" to steel of seat tube.

    In my opinion hint to undersized seatpost.
    sorry für the mistakes!

  22. #22
    Senior Member clasher's Avatar
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    I think it was installed with grease as it was shiny but yeah suspiciously easy to remove. I found my 7mm allen wrench so the stem is going to come out today as well... there's a wooden plug (or a hard cork?) in the bottom of the fork too. I guess frakenbikes have existed since they made the second bicycle.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Daveyates's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a PX10 at all.
    I'm not sure which bike it is though.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by clasher View Post
    ... there's a wooden plug (or a hard cork?) in the bottom of the fork too.
    that's a wooden plug of 50 mm length you will find in every 60s PX (for reason somewhat nebulous). Was used even into 70s.
    sorry für the mistakes!

  25. #25
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    Ding, Ding, Ding!

    I think qd-s is right. Look at the seat cluster on this 1962 green one on CR. It even has the F stamp like the OP's bike. The paint treatment is the same as well.

    http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Fra...ugeot_home.htm

    It has just been Frankenbiked!
    Last edited by seypat; 06-17-11 at 08:28 AM.

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