Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-15-11, 01:08 PM   #1
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Frame ID Help - 60s french & italian parts

Howdy folks... picked up a frame from a local flipper and the nervex? lugs caught my eye as well as the campy record hubs, so I got this mess for 80$... some decent parts for me to clean up at least... would like to rebuild the wheels with stainless spokes... never ridden tubulars before and the frame is a pretty close fit to boot.

There is a lot of surface rust especially on the top tube and the chrome fork shows a lot of surface rust... otherwise the frame looks pretty decent, no dents or holes.

A bit of searching the archives has the components being mid to late sixties... mostly the universal '61 brakes and the simplex derailleur has metal plates on the parellogram so that makes is a 67 at least, or so says disraeli gears


Here's what hanging on the frame:
universal 61 centrepulls
stronglight crank
campy record hubs laced to a fiamme (spelling?) tubular rims
3TTT stem and bars
freccia d'oro plastic saddle
campy shifters, triplex FD and simplex RD
the dropouts on the rear are simplex

the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.

Here are some pictures:





Here's more pics in the flickr album if you want to zoom in... I can snap a few more pics if it'll help. Thanks for any thoughts on this bike you've got.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mystery-3.jpg (62.4 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg mystery-1.jpg (76.1 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg mystery-2.jpg (93.5 KB, 65 views)
File Type: jpg mystery-4.jpg (76.6 KB, 71 views)
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 02:28 PM   #2
qd-s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
nice find.

To me this is a late 1960s Peugeot PX10.
Given Stronglight 93 crank is original to the bike it would be a PX10 from between ca. 1968 and 1970 (SL 93 apparently was introduced in late '67 or '68).

Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:33 AM.
qd-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 03:23 PM   #3
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 16,570
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Did you see the picture of the bottom bracket? The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.
Grand Bois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 03:51 PM   #4
GrayJay
Senior Member
 
GrayJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am guessing the BB cutout is a W and that it is a Mexican Windsor
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-Carerra-Sport

The simplex RD was probably a later replacement. Check the BB threading to rule out french production.
GrayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 04:32 PM   #5
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
Did you see the picture of the bottom bracket? The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.
Maybe the fork was added later? I forget what the seatpost was measured at but I do remember the bars being 26mm

I do remember the front lugs seem to have that reinforcement ridge that I saw in this thread. As well I did see an "F" punched in near the seatpost binder bolt.

Last edited by clasher; 06-15-11 at 04:36 PM.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 04:44 PM   #6
dbakl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Bikes: Cinelli, Paramount, Raleigh, Carlton, Zeus, Gemniani, Frejus, Legnano, Pinarello, Falcon
Posts: 5,775
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrayJay View Post
I am guessing the BB cutout is a W and that it is a Mexican Windsor

Not with Simplex dropouts and REAL Nervex lugs, especially fork crown and bottom bracket shell...
dbakl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 05:07 PM   #7
Otis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,617
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
I was going to say PX10 with a fork swap. The BB shell had me scratching my head, but is that an actual cut-out, engraving, or just paint? Can't tell from the small pics.
Otis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 05:25 PM   #8
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
I'm fairly certain it's not a cut-out rather a it feels like paint or more accurately a vinyl sticker but I'd have to attack with more than my stubby fingernail and I'm away from the bike right now.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 06:48 PM   #9
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 16,570
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
But there is a real cutout on the BB shell that is definitely not PX10. What is the diameter of that stem? The 26 mm bars would not fit a French stem.
Grand Bois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 07:00 PM   #10
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Bikes: 1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
Posts: 16,955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Check the OD of the seat tube: 28.0mm = French, possibly Belgian or Swiss; 28.6mm = everyone else.
Check the width of the BB shell itself: 70mm = Italian; 68mm = everyone else.
Alternatively, remove the adjustable cup lockring -- if it will slide over an ISO cup's threads, you have an Italian BB and probably an Italian bike. (I have never heard of Simplex dropouts on an Italian frame, but maybe others have.)
__________________
"Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 07:24 PM   #11
sisddwg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Montara, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by clasher View Post
Howdy folks... picked up a frame from a local flipper and the nervex? lugs caught my eye as well as the campy record hubs, so I got this mess for 80$... some decent parts for me to clean up at least... would like to rebuild the wheels with stainless spokes... never ridden tubulars before and the frame is a pretty close fit to boot.

There is a lot of surface rust especially on the top tube and the chrome fork shows a lot of surface rust... otherwise the frame looks pretty decent, no dents or holes.


A bit of searching the archives has the components being mid to late sixties... mostly the universal '61 brakes and the simplex derailleur has metal plates on the parellogram so that makes is a 67 at least, or so says disraeli gears


Here's what hanging on the frame:
universal 61 centrepulls
stronglight crank
campy record hubs laced to a fiamme (spelling?) tubular rims
3TTT stem and bars
freccia d'oro plastic saddle
campy shifters, triplex FD and simplex RD
the dropouts on the rear are simplex

the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.

Here are some pictures:





Here's more pics in the flickr album if you want to zoom in... I can snap a few more pics if it'll help. Thanks for any thoughts on this bike you've got.
Wow! What a coincidence! See my post today - "Motobecane-Astra". As to your question about tubulars; IMO if they are properly mounted they are actually safer than clinchers. I love the feel of sew-ups. I wouldn't trust those in the photos. That's a very nice looking bike that deserves to be built up. You will love the ride of French bikes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC00678.jpg (97.7 KB, 14 views)
sisddwg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 08:06 PM   #12
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 1,789
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Just a stab in the dark, but with the mix match of Italian and french parts I would guess it is not from one of those 2 countries. Maybe Swiss, Swedish or one of the Benelux countries. With the M or W possibly Mondia or Monark. Canada has at least 2 brands starting with M.
seypat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-11, 09:23 PM   #13
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,200
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
I don't think it's French, despite those Simplex DOs...that stem has to be 22.2 so it doesn't have a FR fork. Don't think Monark or Mondia, either...altered Nervex pro lugs seem British, if anything...but this is definitely a weirdo!

Measure that seat post...that's what I want to know.
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 08:22 AM   #14
qd-s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Maybe I am wrong (late 60s PX10).

I have seen and worked on so many PX10s (like many of you) that for me - without checking exakt measurements of seatpost (should be 26,4 mm) etc. - this bike simply cries out PX10.

Extent of chrome on rear chain-stays along with that one chromed RD's cablefixing in exactly the right position, shape of seat-stay tops (diameter ought to be 16 mm) and the way these are fixed to frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clasher View Post
... chrome fork ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
... The fork bend doesn't look right for a PX10, either.
I agree, fork's shape is strange (very low amount of rake for 60s PX).
Fully chromed forks are at least over here a characteristic of replacement forks (fit any bike's color).

Quote:
the BB has a W or an M depending on how you read it... seems to be paint or a sticker but I didn't scratch hard at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
But there is a real cutout on the BB shell that is definitely not PX10....
I don't see a cutout in BB, but my eyes are weak, unfortunately.

Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:34 AM.
qd-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 08:35 AM   #15
qd-s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
... What is the diameter of that stem? The 26 mm bars would not fit a French stem.
I have the same 3ttt-stem (60s "grand prix") on one of my bikes (22,0 + "italian" bar),

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...m=102&AbsPos=1 (-> 22,0 mm + 26,0 mm)

plus stem could easily have been ground down from 22,2 to 22,0 mm (in earlier days I did it myself and from what I heard it's quite common at least here in Germany because of increasing rarity of french parts for the many Peugeots we have over here. Even worse, it could have been forced into fork by use of a hammer)

Apart from measuring tubes (metric?), BB width, threads etc. a close-up view of BB's lower side would be helpful. 60s PX have 6 digits stamped into BB, seemingly executed by hand and often not very accurately (+ certain kind of numeral punches used).
http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/s...ttom%20Bracket

Again - I may be wrong!

Exciting!

Last edited by qd-s; 06-17-11 at 07:34 AM.
qd-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 09:11 AM   #16
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,200
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
I'm revising my opinion: it could be French, also could be a replacement fork. We need more info (like measurements) and better detail pics!
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 09:55 AM   #17
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Okay, so the stem is an exact 22.20mm. The BB is 68mm wide buyt I can't get the cranks off (extractor is on the way). There are some discrepancies in the seatpost but it seems to be pretty close to 26.0mm... the seatstays are indeed 16mm.

There aren't any numbers stamped into the BB and the W/M is just a thick sticker. I have a camera and the bike with me today so I can snap more pics if you it'll help, lemme know what you wanna see.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 10:26 AM   #18
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
I just pulled the seatpost out and it's 26.0mm... surprised at how easy it slid out. It's an SR "melt forging" custom, whatever that means.


CIMG2090 by clasher, on Flickr

snapped a couple more pics... wiped away some grease and found a "nervex" stamp in the BB but no serials or anything. The clouds are out so it was hard to get a good shot of it.

Last edited by clasher; 06-16-11 at 11:15 AM.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 10:17 PM   #19
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 9,200
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Couple pics I'd like: close-up of the headlugs, specifically the "whale-tail" on the front of the lugs, if it has that. Close-up of the seat cluster...does it seem that the slot has been pinched at all? Reason I ask is that 26.2 or 26.4 would be typical for metric 531 seat tube, if 26.0 is the correct fit then this might have plain gauge tubing. Does this have the Stronglight BB with octagon shaped fixed cup? If so are there any grooves in the face of that cup?
unworthy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-11, 10:34 PM   #20
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Sorry if these aren't clear enough, I have to borrow a camera since I'm incapable of keeping them intact.


CIMG2087 by clasher, on Flickr



mystery bicycle by clasher, on Flickr
Next time I get a camera I'll get a nice head-on shot, there isn't any evidence of a head badge or anything resembling decal remains.


CIMG2091 by clasher, on Flickr
It seems from this shot the fixed cup is the normal kind with two flats and circular edges... can't recall at this time. I can't get the crank off until my puller comes in the mail and the posties are on strike but I'll look tomorrow and see.

Last edited by clasher; 06-16-11 at 10:36 PM. Reason: more details
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-11, 07:27 AM   #21
qd-s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
thanks for added pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clasher View Post
I just pulled the seatpost out and it's 26.0mm... surprised at how easy it slid out....
Finding a - seemingly aluminium - seatpost easy to pull out on a rusty bike like this arouses my suspicion. Typically aluminium ought to (nearly) be "welded" to steel of seat tube.

In my opinion hint to undersized seatpost.
qd-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-11, 07:45 AM   #22
clasher 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,894
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
I think it was installed with grease as it was shiny but yeah suspiciously easy to remove. I found my 7mm allen wrench so the stem is going to come out today as well... there's a wooden plug (or a hard cork?) in the bottom of the fork too. I guess frakenbikes have existed since they made the second bicycle.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-11, 07:55 AM   #23
Daveyates
Senior Member
 
Daveyates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Paris France
Bikes:
Posts: 1,338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't think it's a PX10 at all.
I'm not sure which bike it is though.
Daveyates is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-11, 07:57 AM   #24
qd-s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Germany
Bikes:
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by clasher View Post
... there's a wooden plug (or a hard cork?) in the bottom of the fork too.
that's a wooden plug of 50 mm length you will find in every 60s PX (for reason somewhat nebulous). Was used even into 70s.
qd-s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-11, 08:24 AM   #25
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 1,789
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Ding, Ding, Ding!

I think qd-s is right. Look at the seat cluster on this 1962 green one on CR. It even has the F stamp like the OP's bike. The paint treatment is the same as well.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Fra...ugeot_home.htm

It has just been Frankenbiked!

Last edited by seypat; 06-17-11 at 08:28 AM.
seypat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:04 PM.