Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-22-11, 11:27 AM   #1
whiteside
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Campy Record Rear Hub Woes

Hey,
I recently got a record hubbed wheel-set very cheaply. Much to my dismay, the rear hub has some pitting on the cones and races and the axle is bent. This was a 126mm spaced hub and I understand this was a common problem. I re-spaced the hub to 120mm single speed configuration, and this seems to make the bent axle a little less noticeable.

I am a broke masters student, so my funds are very limited... I have the hub adjusted slightly loose, and it seems to be spinning pretty smoothly. My current philosophy has been to just 'ride it till it dies,' but it seems like a shame. Has anyone had experience with this/ suggestions?

1)I have access to a bunch of shimano style axles and cones. If the ball bearings are the same size, can I replace the whole axle assembly? From what I understand, only the thread-pitch is different between the Italian and Japanese standards. Will a japanese cone/bearing mate up with the italian races?

2)If I could find/afford a replacement axle, is it worth spending the money for a hub with some pits on the races? I've heard about the technique of polishing compound instead of grease, is this effective?

Any suggestions/advice appreciated!
whiteside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 11:31 AM   #2
rhm
multimodal commuter
 
rhm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
Posts: 16,139
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
You can get replacement cups for those hubs. I know, because I have one or two such cups somewhere, which I bought years ago because one of my cups had a problem (I haven't got around to replacing it yet!). As for using Shimano axle and cones, I don't know but I'd guess it's worth trying. If they're too big they might not turn at all; if they're too small they might allow an unacceptable amount of dirt to get in. But still, worth a look-see.
rhm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 12:15 PM   #3
whiteside
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Has anyone here ever tried using tooth paste as a polishing compound in the hubs? What kind is best?
whiteside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 12:35 PM   #4
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.
Posts: 3,805
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
If you locate some races for the hub I change them for you. You pay shipping both ways. As for parts....

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...d=796620518595

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...d=796620518595
Michael Angelo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 12:50 PM   #5
Steel Charlie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Of course the Shimano will work. All decent rear hubs use the same size and # of balls. You may have to dick a little w/ the spacing washers but prolly not even that.

Bent axles were not a common problem. Poorly maintained and adjusted hubs have always been a problem tho.

SC
Steel Charlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 01:01 PM   #6
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel Charlie View Post
Of course the Shimano will work. All decent rear hubs use the same size and # of balls. You may have to dick a little w/ the spacing washers but prolly not even that.

Bent axles were not a common problem. Poorly maintained and adjusted hubs have always been a problem tho.

SC
No. Shimano threads are different than Campy.

I think the OP may be confusing the terms 'cup' 'cone' and 'race'. Axle cones, the part that actualy threads to the axle can be easily found on ebay or through other sources at a reasonable cost. If the part inside the hub, the 'race' is bad your opions are limited as they're not as readily available although I guess LooseScrews has them and they're tricky to replace unless you have someone like michaelAngelo or myself do it for you. That being said my local bike store has a complete axle set for $25.

Shipping can be cost prohibative to and from for an entire wheel, maybe $15-20 each way versus $5 each way for a loose hub.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:28 PM   #7
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
If you locate some races for the hub I change them for you. You pay shipping both ways. As for parts....

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...d=796620518595

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi...d=796620518595
What you are saying here is misleading, as far as parts go. Right now, Loose Screws has some cones, but no cups for Nuovo Record or for Super Record.

Are you saying you can press worn bearing cups (aka races) from the hub shell and press new ones back in? I may want you to do some for me.
Road Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:33 PM   #8
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteside View Post
Has anyone here ever tried using tooth paste as a polishing compound in the hubs? What kind is best?
The kind of race wear that's a problem is when the case hardened layer is flaking off, leaving pits behind. Essentially once it starts it's a path toward total failure. By the time it really feels bad it's toast. Continued use leads to more flaking with the resulting debris accelerating the process. It can even lock up.

Such a surface needs to be ground down to below the layer of the old case hardining, reshaped properly, then re-hardened. I've heard of many lesser hubs improved by lapping treatments such as toothpaste or Simichrome, but it doesn't have the ability to restore an original hardening and finish.

Last edited by Road Fan; 06-22-11 at 03:48 PM.
Road Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:35 PM   #9
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Are you saying you can press worn bearing cups (aka races) from the hub shell and press new ones back in? I may want you to do some for me.
Yes. Both Michael Angelo and myself have written extensive threads on the topic......

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...?highlight=hub
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:41 PM   #10
23skidoo 
Gone World Hepster
 
23skidoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Lincoln, NE
Bikes:
Posts: 1,273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If someone will give me dimensions of the rear hub races, I have an assortment of older NOS Campy parts but I don't know if they are for front or rear.
__________________
77 Trek TX300--78 Trek TX-300--79 Trek 510--83 Trek 520--83 Nickel Plated Trek 400--86 Trek Elance 400--75 Gitane Interclub--73 Viscount 'Death Fork SS--76 Viscount Aerospace Pro--80's Diamant Verbinnen--80's Basso--90's Montagner SS--84 SR Explorer MTB
23skidoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:43 PM   #11
LePatron
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Go with replacement axle by Wheel Manufacturing. You're probably looking at about $15 and you can use the existing cones and nuts.
LePatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 03:48 PM   #12
whiteside
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Bikes:
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'll measure my hub when I get a chance this evening. It sounds like if I want to rejuvenate this hub, I should replace the axle, cones, and races. I'm starting to think that it might be easier/cheaper to get a fresher hub off of ebay. I plan to try out the Japanese axle/cone strategy, and if that fails, use this wheel as a case study of hub life. Is there anything better than phil woods to eak out as much life as I can from this hub?
whiteside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 04:01 PM   #13
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteside View Post
I'll measure my hub when I get a chance this evening. It sounds like if I want to rejuvenate this hub, I should replace the axle, cones, and races. I'm starting to think that it might be easier/cheaper to get a fresher hub off of ebay. I plan to try out the Japanese axle/cone strategy, and if that fails, use this wheel as a case study of hub life. Is there anything better than phil woods to eak out as much life as I can from this hub?
Races (cups) very rarely need to be replaced, post pics of you cleaned cups and we can tell you if they need to be replaced. Assuming the cups are good the most it'll cost you is $25.

In regards to hubs the most you'll need to spend is $5-10. Assuming your current Campy hub is low flange all you need to do is replace the wheel with any low flange hub. A very simple and bullet proof way is to find a generic Shimano cassette hub, lace it into your current wheel and use only 1 cog with a bunch of spacers. You'll be able to reuase your old rim and spokes. you can also take that same Shimano cassette hub and remove 6mm of spacers from the NON-gear side to make it a 120mm, this will allow for almost neutral dish.

I've never spent more than $20 to convert a bike to SS.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 04:09 PM   #14
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Someone will have to check the part number to see what its for:

Hub race:

http://www.ochsnerusa-store.com/prod...p?prod=CA-0738
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 04:16 PM   #15
Road Fan
Senior Member
 
Road Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,421
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
From a campy NR rear hub shell with bearing races in place sitting here in front of me, the O.D. of the race is 1.101 inches, or 27.97 mm. The ID (hole for the axle) is 0.517 inches or 13.1 mm.
Road Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 04:43 PM   #16
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 11,181
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
You went to 120mm single speed set up.
My suggestions:

Bend the bent axle straight and ride it as is, an axle vise helps here.

New axle, same cones and races, new ball bearings.

Donor hub for the races, cones and cups you may need. Loose hubs w/o quick releases are cheaper than a la carte new parts.

Changing the races is not the easiest, but not impossible. As noted there are threads around her on this. For me, rebuilding the wheel is easier, you messed up the dish going to 120 mm spacing anyway, you may even be able to reuse the spokes, keep the LH & RH separate. I would get new nipples. Typical 126 drive side spokes are 2 mm shorter than the off side, typical 3x lacing. On a 120 mm hub, depends, I usually go 1 mm different. Or let the chainline guide you and go almost equal length spokes after the hub shell is over.
repechage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 04:53 PM   #17
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 16,839
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
http://shop.ebay.com/bbar29/m.html?_trksid=p4340.l2562
Grand Bois is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 05:44 PM   #18
old's'cool 
curmudgineer
 
old's'cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago SW burbs
Bikes: 2 many 2 fit here
Posts: 3,788
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
The kind of race wear that's a problem is when the case hardened layer is flaking off, leaving pits behind. Essentially once it starts it's a path toward total failure. By the time it really feels bad it's toast. Continued use leads to more flaking with the resulting debris accelerating the process. It can even lock up.
Somewhat correct. The real issue is material fatigue, which in a rolling bearing application initiates below the surface. As the fatigue cracks propogate to the surface, flaking ensues. AFAIK, these type of bearings are not intended to be refurbished at this point, due to the large loss of material. It is doubtful that the parent component was designed with enough excess material to permit a renewing of the bearing surface, once fatigue has occurred and a significant layer of material is lost or necessarily condemned and removed. That said, it is not out of the question to refurbish as outlined by Road Fan below, if replacement is not an option. After re-hardening (by someone knowledgable about applicable hardening methods and sufficiently informed about or able to ascertain the specific metallurgy of the material in question), subsequent steps of grinding and polishing to net shape & surface finish are required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Such a surface needs to be ground down to below the layer of the old case hardining, reshaped properly, then re-hardened.
__________________
Geoff
"I think that I think, therefore I think that I am"
old's'cool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-11, 05:51 PM   #19
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.
Posts: 3,805
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
What you are saying here is misleading, as far as parts go. Right now, Loose Screws has some cones, but no cups for Nuovo Record or for Super Record.

Are you saying you can press worn bearing cups (aka races) from the hub shell and press new ones back in? I may want you to do some for me.

I can replace the races on front or rear hubs, campagnolo or other popular brands. Just make sure the replacement cups are correct for the application. PM me if you need this done. My removing tools will not scratch or mar the hubs at all.
Michael Angelo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:55 PM.