pauln

hello everybody, i just introduced myself,,
to start on bikeforums i have a question i'm struggling with for weeks now.
I picked up a nice old bike with nervex pro lugs, crown also (race series), i stripped it completely and got rid of the non original paint and somebody for me did it also, so no decals or anything... no markings on BB from the manufacturer.
The only thing i know for sure, is the color, a nice red with light blue after i removed the headset cups.
I can go on and on but please take a look at the pictures, anybody recognise brand model so i can restore it most likely in original colors/decals.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1170878...eat=directlink
thanks a lot!, hope to hear from you,
Regards Paul

dbakl

Does not look Carlton like to me, mostly the seat stay attachment. Carlton headbadge attached with 2 horizontal holes. Are threads English? Looks more French...

-holiday76

looks english to me, just doesnt look like a Carlton. Doesnt look like my Carlton anyhow.

pauln

thanks,
could it be it was made carlton, but for an other company?
the new installed bracket is a Shimano 1.37 24t
also mentioned Bob in the foto comment that the information on the bracket indicates not french.
Are there more signs for me to look for?
thanks again, Paul

dbakl

The rebaged Carltons I've had have been identical to Carlton production, just redecaled. I doubt they'd bother changing their build style for someone else.

cudak888 

Campagnolo 1010 dropouts as opposed to 1010A's - either someone was hoarding dropouts, or it hails from sometime around the early '60s.

I've seen that dropout stamping somewhere, but I can't place it:



-Kurt

rhm

Are there no numbers stamped onto it beside the "23" on the steerer tube and dropout? If so, I don't believe you're dealing with a large manufacturer like Carlton.

unworthy1

I Agree: British but not Carlton, and I think with the single-taper seat stays and "whale tail" Nervex Pro lugs, it's not as early as those 1010 Campy dropouts might lead. I think the builder used some old stock DOs as Kurt surmised.
Nice frame, wish I knew more.

lotek 

I think it's a Joco frame. They were a small to mid sized builder in Amsterdam,
did use Nervex lugs, and the holes for the headbadge seem to fit.
here's a picture of one that resides in west. virginia:


company was started in 1919 and operated until late middle 1970s
there isn't much information about Joco, but I can say they are fairly
uncommon and high on my list of coveted dutch bikes.

Marty
edit: the frame above is very large, 60+cm if I recall correctly and may
distort size of headbadge.

pauln

Thanks Kurt,
If it's a small manufacturer it made sense he would use everything he had in stock, the 1010 is the old version, isn't?
What can you make of the front drop out, does it match the 1010 /Users/paul/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Previews/2011/06/14/20110614-214236/IMG_4015.JPG
My only quess is, that both parts were stamped for the paint-shop, that indicates at least a small manufacturer to keep the parts together, what do you think?
Please let me know when you have your Eureka-moment on the stamping!
Paul

pauln

Marty, also thanks, this could be good starting point, then the bike never left the Netherlands...
The Joco picture, is your idea based on that headtube picture, or do you know more about that specific bike, like the form of the brake bridge and seat stay caps?
I start a search on Joco, after all i live in the Netherlands
If so i'm happy to give the frame a name (and start looking for the badge,mmmm.)
paul

pauln

unworthy,
also thanks,
of course it can be british, all the pictures i saw and the information i gathered indicates british, but i have untrained eyes.
tapered tubes says the deforming of the tube isn't? I learned so far that the caps are an important clue, but where can i find more detailed information for id-ing bike frames on this level, details as tapered tubes and the way of pressing the dents, could it be a good point to focus on?
and yes, this one rides again, she is nice, what do you think, original colors/ parts/;
paaul

lotek 

Paul,

Good luck finding anything online about Joco. there's scant information and even
fewer photos. Occasionally one shows up on Marktplaats, but that's about all I've ever seen.
you might want to check with the guys
who run this site: https://klassiekeracefiets.wordpress.com/
good luck,
Marty

jbkirby

It looks like a beautiful frame and I look forward to seeing the end product. I just (last night) completed a frame-up build on a 1971 Raleigh Internaitonal and I am wanting to start another, but my bank account says, "Niet doen!!!!"

Have a great time rebuilding this classic!

unworthy1

The single-taper seat stays came into fashion later than the Campy 1010 dropouts were, I'm not sure when the Nervex Pro headlugs adopted the "whale tail" detail, but really early Nervex pros had a different detail. It's common for many builders to stamp the serial number on both frame and steerer so that frame and fork can be ID'd as belonging together. Dutch building looks very much like British, too, so I'm sure it could be either...it has the Nervex Pro fork crown which was sold separately from the rest of the frame bits (lugs and BB shell) cause it added much more to the cost. Lots of bikes that used the lugs substituted a different crown to save money. Original color might have been "flamboyant" red, which was transparent red lacquer over a base of silver metallic paint...a style very popular in Britain but, again, used in NL and other countries, too.

pauln

yes, getting more and more info, i'm gratefull!
I was aware of the fork crown in nervex pro, was the differance in price so much by the way (forgive me my terrible writing english)
the kind of paint job, and the color scheme, can i find somewere examples of it on a close to similar bike? I have to imagine to colors, new to me, or maybe avery simple coloring program for a bike, choose your lugs/ size.. isn't that a good idea? then choose colorscheme..
i'm not good enough for that idea with computers..
first focus on the bike with the likely not standard parts. timescheme.
i think it over this night.. thanks all!