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  1. #1
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    phil wood BB size for 83 campy record strada cranks

    hi there,
    long time reader first time poster. love your work.

    i have searched and searched and read and red... i cannot, for the life of me, find a definitive answer. i've emailed peter white, who said to get a 111mm. bicycle classics says 116mm w/asymmetric spindle. phil wood themselves only offered "it's hard to say", and said to check velobase.

    am i the only person in the world who wants to match up a phil wood with 80's campy cranks? please, if some genius is out there somewhere - what size spindle length should i buy for 1983 campagnolo record strada cranks?

    thanks!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    What's the rear Spindle OLD? THat will really help out. Usually 111 for 120 OLD and 114-116 for 126-130 old. There are other factors to think about , still whatever spindle length you use, you need to check the chainline. Please post a picture of the crankset.

  3. #3
    Senior Member shnibop's Avatar
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    116mm asymmetrical. On the Phil site it will say "+5".

    Also, you want the 68/73 width BB. It's used for English/French and Italian alike.

    I can get you the specific part number when I get home.

  4. #4
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnibop View Post
    116mm asymmetrical. On the Phil site it will say "+5".

    Also, you want the 68/73 width BB. It's used for English/French and Italian alike.

    I can get you the specific part number when I get home.
    Shnibop was very helpful to me when i was looking for one. I am pretty sure this is the one but lets see what he has written down.


    BRSD5R Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket 68/73mm - Campagnolo
    $119.00
    Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket
    Description: 68/73mm-Campagnolo Length(mm): 115 Offset(mm): R+5 Weight(gm):221
    Quantity


    do you have the tool? you need a 22mm socket for your torque wrench.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  5. #5
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    great! wow, thanks for the help. i've got 126 spacing in the rear. for a beautiful colnago spiral conic that i picked up yesterday.... scooping up campy parts this week, hope to have it on the road in a week or two.

    shnibop, a confirmation on Bianchigirll's info would be much appreciated.

  6. #6
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    The 111mm sounds right. I've used 119mm Phil Wood BB for the Campy Record cranks I converted to triples. Don't forget the Phil BB can be adjusted side to side a few mm in order to dial in a good chain line. This is a helpful feature.
    Bob
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  7. #7
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    on second glance - Bianchigirll, i think that one is for the post 94 campy cranks, yeah? aren't the old ones compatible with JIS?
    brain hurts.... i had an easier time finding a BB for my Stronglights!

  8. #8
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    +1 on Bianchi girl's notes.

    You can run 113 to 116, but get the +5 offset.

    Older cranks are ISO. Do not go the JIS route, unless you have a JIS crank. It's possible, but not recommended.

    I just put a Stronglight 93 onto an old (refurb'd) style Phil that was 113mm. The bike is a 1971 Gitane. Excellent fit.



    Campy ball & cup BB is 114mm, and they work fine, too.

    I also recommend 114 or 115mm as "best fit" for the older style Campy cranks.
    1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
    1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
    1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
    1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
    1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
    1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
    (replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)

  9. #9
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesinclair View Post
    on second glance - Bianchigirll, i think that one is for the post 94 campy cranks, yeah? aren't the old ones compatible with JIS?
    brain hurts.... i had an easier time finding a BB for my Stronglights!
    that may be but wait for Alex to find the info. it depends on the whole CSPC thing.

    funny I bought a NOS newer Stronglight crank and I can't find the correct BB that instructions call for. strange eh?
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  10. #10
    Senior Member shnibop's Avatar
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    Bianchigirll was close haha...

    for all Record cranks (double) made after ~1977 (post-CPSC) you want to use:

    BRS16R Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket 68/73mm - JIS
    $119.00
    Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket
    Description: 68/73mm- JIS Length(mm): 116 Offset(mm): R+5 Weight(gm):222




    for all Record cranks (double) made prior to ~1977 (pre-CPSC) you want to use:

    BRS13R Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket 68/73mm - JIS
    $119.00
    Stainless Steel Bottom Bracket
    Description: 68/73mm- JIS Length(mm): 113 Offset(mm): R+5 Weight(gm):215




    pre-CPSC Record cranks have a "large" bump on the back side, while the a post-CPSC crank will have a "small" bump.


    pre-CPSC, "large" bump




    post-CPSC, "small" bump




  11. #11
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    JIS?? I thought we're talking about Campagnolo here.

  12. #12
    Disraeli Gears Charles Wahl's Avatar
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    Phil has never made a "Campagnolo" taper. They do JIS or ISO. Campy themselves changed from "Campy" to ISO in 1994. So for pre-1994 cranks, PW sells JIS BBs, which work well enough with the older Campy stuff.

  13. #13
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    No way.

    Campagnolo = ISO.

    All my bikes agree, too.
    1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
    1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
    1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
    1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
    1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
    1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
    (replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)

  14. #14
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    See also: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html#square

    ISO vs J.I.S. Standard

    Martin Trautmann posted on rec.bicycles.tech: L_right = 18 +0.5/-0 mm L_left = 16 +0.5/-0 mm Dimension across flat 1.5 mm from end: 12.6 mm +0.02-0.05 Spindle end to bolt seat: Loose: 3 mm Tightened: 1.5 mm min. Yet another source claimed that the squares of Campa, Mavic and Stronglight (ISO) are smaller than Shimano and Suntour (J.I.S.) with the result that J.I.S. cranks will move about 4.5 mm further in. This may conflict with the end of the square and result in a loose fit or braking stress. for ISO cranks on J.I.S. squares there's less contact area between crank and spindle, since the crank does not slip perfectly on the spindle. The result again is a higher risk of braking the crank. But assuming those 4.5 mm and 2 deg, ISO is about 0.3 mm smaller than J.I.S. (2 * sin 2 * 4.5 = 0.3)? ISO cranks (Campagnolo, Stronglight, others) won't go as far onto J.I.S. spindles as they ideally should. J.I.S. cranks (most Japanese models) may bottom out if installed on ISO spindles.
    In practice, you can very often get away with mixing these sizes, as long as you select an axle length that gives the desired chainline.
    See also my Article on Bottom Bracket Tapers. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html


    ISO

    ISO square taper spindles run longer, and taper down to a smaller end than J.I.S. spindles do. Most European-made square taper cranks and bottom brackets use the ISO dimensions. ISO models include:

    • Campagnolo
    • Older Stronglight
    • Nervar
    • TA
    • Japanese N.J.S. track parts, such as Sugino 75
    • (Note: Old Ofmega/Avocet spindles were quite a bit skinnier/longer even than ISO. There are no modern bottom brackets that work with old Ofmega/Avocet cranks.)


    J.I.S.

    J.I.S. is the Japanese Industrial Standard, and is generally used on square taper cranks made in Asia. J.I.S. spindles are shorter and blunter, they don't taper down to quite as small a square. J.I.S. models include:

    • Ritchey
    • S.R. Sakae Ringyo
    • Shimano
    • Specialized
    • Sugino (except N.J.S. track models and some older units.)
    1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
    1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
    1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
    1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
    1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
    1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
    (replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)

  15. #15
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    hmmm.... a lot of disagreement here. i'm going to get the titanium one, so i'd really prefer not to try out multiple BB's!

    could it be that sheldon was talking about "pre cpsc/77" campy's?

    does anyone here have a post cpsc crank on a phil wood?

  16. #16
    Disraeli Gears Charles Wahl's Avatar
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    Well, believe me or don't believe me; doesn't matter to me:
    http://www.philwood.com/support/faqs.php and search "Campagnolo."
    It's also spelled out in their catalogs, at least until 2009, of which I have a copy.

  17. #17
    Senior Member shnibop's Avatar
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    from the Phil Wood FAQ page:

    What is the difference between JIS, JIS low profile, and ISO tapers?


    Phil Wood offers all three tapers to try and best meet the needs of our customers who are using square-tapered bottom brackets. An explaination of the different bottom bracket tapers can be found here. In brief, most modern cranks will take the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper, in addition to Campagnolo cranks produced before 1994. After 1994, Campagnolo moved to the ISO (a.k.a. Campy) taper. The less common of the three tapers offered is the JIS low profile, which is used in some specific older-model Dura Ace cranks.


    i called Phil Wood way back when and was told the same thing over the phone.

    modern Campagnolo (post 1994) is ISO, the BBs marked Campagnolo in the store section of the PW site are ISO, ISO=Campagnolo=ISO

  18. #18
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    Well, the Phil web site you linked tells you to:

    "First, it is helpful to understand chainline. Youíll also need to know the make and model of the cranks you are using. Then take a look at . . . this chart"

    -- where "this chart" is a link to the Sheldon Brown page I clipped above.

    You can also speak to Mark at Phil Woods. Great help, but quick to admit that the current staff "don't know much about the old stuff." It's why they won't make recommendations, and send you to read Sheldon Brown.
    1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
    1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
    1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
    1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
    1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
    1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
    (replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)

  19. #19
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    Tonight I will research my Sutherlands Manual and I will get back to this. Somehow I don't buy using a JIS spindle on any Campagnolo Crank. Seems to me the taper would be all wrong, Ruinning the crank and impossible to get the correct chainline. If I remember correctly the only time JIS could be used is on some TA or Stronglights cranks, to get a different Q factor. That said, if prople want to use a JIS spindle on Campagnolo cranks more power to them.

    MIke

  20. #20
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    Michael, any luck on your research? i will try and hunt down Mark. i'm very familiar with ISO cranks on JIS spindles, my main ride has vintage Stronglights on a VO bb.

    yet again, there seems to be a lot of confusion. so far, i'm inclined to go with Shnibo's suggestion. i want to actually buy a BB, so....

    does there anyone out there somewhere with a computer know of anyone running a Phil BB with Campagnolo cranks from 77-84?!

  21. #21
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    just for the record - got a 116mm asymmetrical BB and it was a perfect fit.

  22. #22
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnibop View Post
    from the Phil Wood FAQ page:

    What is the difference between JIS, JIS low profile, and ISO tapers?


    Phil Wood offers all three tapers to try and best meet the needs of our customers who are using square-tapered bottom brackets. An explaination of the different bottom bracket tapers can be found here. In brief, most modern cranks will take the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper, in addition to Campagnolo cranks produced before 1994. After 1994, Campagnolo moved to the ISO (a.k.a. Campy) taper. The less common of the three tapers offered is the JIS low profile, which is used in some specific older-model Dura Ace cranks.


    i called Phil Wood way back when and was told the same thing over the phone.

    modern Campagnolo (post 1994) is ISO, the BBs marked Campagnolo in the store section of the PW site are ISO, ISO=Campagnolo=ISO
    +1 .....and it was based on similar phone conversation.

    I have done this. It works fine. Sorry Leica Lad
    but you may want to rethink this whole thing.

    Here's the bike it went into:'78 Davidson Signature 001.jpg'78 Davidson Signature 005.jpg

    Phil Wood JIS BB unit, 70's Campy Crank........works fine.

    I was just as surprised as anyone else to discover this.

    Edit: Crank is from 1978 if I recall correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by CKey_Cal View Post
    Facts are binary. If they aren't, then they aren't facts.

  23. #23
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Curses, ****ed again by a zombie thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by CKey_Cal View Post
    Facts are binary. If they aren't, then they aren't facts.

  24. #24
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    Never enough dead horses to flog.

    I know nothing about post 1994 bikes. Few of those are interesting. C&V here.

    Before well into, and I do mean really well into, the 70s bike boom, NO one bought Japanese . . . anything. JIS? Please.

    Obviously, the mid & later bike boom and beyond changed that Ė radically fast.

    BUT, it makes no sense to speak of a spindle taper standard from that period as J.I.S. Zeus, Stronglight (and many sub-labels), Campagnolo, et.al. used the same spindle taper. It was not Japanese.

    AFAIK, the Campy NR/SR crank arms of the early 80s, in spite of a modest Q-difference from earlier crank arms, used the same spindles, too. My box of Campy, Stronglight, etc., spindles crossing that era are pretty much the same.

    When in doubt, I prefer the early Phil BBs. I refurb or replace the bearings. Those spindles fit all of my C&V cranksets. Iíve just bought an early model 119mm Phil BB for my triple-ized <8> Campy SR crank. Just for fun, I'll install hybrid bearings.

    You CAN use Campy cranks on a JIS spindle. Itís just a less-than-perfect fit. It's really not the best thing to do, but it's your bike. Sheldon, among others, explains it well. I prefer to use the correct spindles.

    YMMV.
    1959 Hilton Wrigley Connoisseur (still my favorite!)
    1963 Hetchins Mountain King (the gravel grinder)
    1971 Gitane Tour de France (The War Horse)
    1971 Gitane Super Corsa (The Garage Queen)
    1980 Ritchey Touring (The Grail Bike)
    1984 Tom Ritchey Team Competition (NOS show bike)
    (replacing the stolen 1981 Tom Ritchey Everest custom)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesinclair View Post
    just for the record - got a 116mm asymmetrical BB and it was a perfect fit.
    Could you please provide the exact details (taper JIS/ISO, offset, product code etc.) of the Phil's BB which you've bought.

    The reason why I am asking is because I am still confused here... My situation is I want to use my Campagnolo 1049/A, Strada Super Record Crank Set with a Phil Wood BB. The original BB which was used with the crank set is Campagnolo Nuovo Record, 70 SS , 115.5mm. Here is the pictures of both the Crank Set and the original BB:

    IMG_7558.JPGIMG_7559.jpgIMG_7560.jpgIMG_7562.jpgIMG_7564.jpgIMG_7573.JPG

    To be honest, I am still not entirely sure how Phil's JIS BBs can work the same way as earlier Campagnolo BBs if the tapers are so different. For example:

    JIS_Taper.jpg and Campagnolo_NR_Taper.jpg

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