tomd7

Hi all, this is my first post to BikeForums so please be gentle. I bought a frame on Craigslist that had already been powdercoated, so it has no decals or other identifiers besides the frame itself. No serial number; it appears to be filled in with paint. Also can't tell through the paint if the dropouts are marked at all. Can anyone tell me more about it?

- 70mm Italian bb
- 126mm rear spacing
- newer (appears not original) Shimano 105 headset (seatpost & stem also not original)
- fastback seat stays
- single set of diamond-shaped waterbottle mounts
- braze-on front der mount
- internally-routed rear brake cable

Pics:

Italuminium

My best guess some early nineties frame, probably not too shabby quality judging by the internal cable routing and other braze - ons. there is no brand specific pantographing, so who knows what this might be. Very elegant fork crown. Just build it up nicely and have fun riding it! Any thoughts on the group you'll have on it?

unworthy1

looks pretty nice but there's nothing there to hang a name on: fastback seat cluster is distinctive and the internal cable routing slick, but the frame bits are fairly generic. If you could scrape away some of that thick coating to read stampings or numbers there could be a clue, but maybe not. Chances are that it was contract-built by one of the big Italian contractors (like Billato) for a house brand (otherwise there would be something to indicate a name brand). Have you removed the fork to check the steerer for any marks? any rifling in the steerer?

tomd7

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. If anyone knows anything more, keep it coming.

unworthy - Nope, hadn't though to remove the fork. I'll do that and post if I find any identifiers.

Italuminium - I agree on the fork crown--it was the crown that drew me in after seeing Craigslist pics, I think it's beautiful. I'll probably get some eyerolls from the group here, but I built it up as a fixed gear this weekend and intend to use it as a commuter and all-around fun machine. I'm on limited funds (baby on the way) and ride a lot in the city where I really like having the ability to stop without reaching for my brakes most of the time.

zandoval 

Stolen???

Scooper

I'm a bit surprised there's no chainstay bridge behind the BB shell.

tomd7

zandoval - The "stolen" thought crossed my mind. The frame had already been powdercoated when the guy I bought it from purchased it (also on Craigslist). It was too small for him. So it's a couple people removed from any sort of original owner. If there's anyone in Madison, WI that lost a frame like this, please let me know.

Scooper - I'm not sure a chainstay bridge would have fit. The clearances are pretty tight on both wheels/tires. Does frame size make a difference as to whether there is a bridge or not? This is a 54cm frame.

unworthy1

I also noted the lack of chainstay bridge, but it's more of a stylistic choice: about this era (mid '80s I'd say) some builders wanted the cleaner look of no crimps and no bridge (plus tight clearances), you might notice a slight flattening of the chainstays to provide just a tiny bit of clearance. It might stress the BB shell to have no bridge (and some shells from this era had reinforcements built in), but this looks like a strong enough unit. The fork crown is nice but it's an off-the-peg Cinelli CC or CCA model (I think). Is the brake bridge just a plain tube?

tomd7

I was thinking the only pic I forgot was the brake bridge. No, it's not a plain tube. It looks something like this: ==[o]== Basically, a tube with a cube in the middle where the brake bolts into.

The tube parts are straight horizontal though, not V'd upward as I've seen on some.

Scooper

It's not so much the frame size as the chainstay length; if the chainstay is so short that the rear tire is within a couple of inches of the BB shell - as it might be on a short wheelbase track bike - then there's really not enough room for a chainstay bridge. The main purpose of the bridge is, as unworthy1 points out, to reduce dynamic stresses on the BB shell/chainstay joints by adding some rigidity in that area.

noglider 

I don't know, but I like it.

DiabloScott

I'm having difficulty imagining any stresses on the BB that would be mitigated by a little chainstay bridge, or how that location adds any rigidity.
The two purposes of a chainstay bridge are 1) a place to mount a fender, and 2) keep the tire from getting wedged in there too tight during changes.

Might help a little bit keeping things aligned when there's no wheel in there... but when there's a hub in the dropouts the chainstay bridge isn't doing anything structurual.

bobbycorno

...and just to further muddy the waters, it might NOT be Italian. BITD, some US builders used Italian-thread bb shells, most notably Masi, Medici and Confente, but could be many others, because as everyone knows all REAL racing bikes are Italian!

SP
Bend, OR

tomd7

I'd be quite happy with any one of those US builders too as it's a pretty cheap Craigslist buy and I'm going to ride it no matter who built it And unworthy1, you're spot on about the fork crown, I believe it's a Cinelli CCA.

Btw bobbycorno, Bend, Oregon is a great place, the wife and I hope to live there or nearby in the future. If only I had the money now to buy one of those surplus houses built before the real estate crash!

Scooper

Just reading from the book...

From The Paterek Manual:

"Chain stay bridges are of importance for two main reasons:

1. They add a noticeable amount of stiffness in the rear triangle and consequently maintain the rear end spacing between the dropouts more effectively.

2. They provide a way to attach a rear fender. Other uses, which are of lesser importance, are providing a stop for a kickstand or certain types of generators to brace against."

...and

"No Bridge -

Even though the bridge is a useful addition, it can be eliminated. If a bridge is not used, the rear triangle will not hold its spacing as well when the wheel is removed. In shipping such a frame, a dummy axle should be kept in the rear dropouts at all times. Keep in mind that some bottom bracket shells are designed with an integrated bridge. Two that come to mind are Everest 'Batman' style and the Cinelli Spoiler."

well biked

On the subject of chainstay bridges, I think they're there at least partly to add stiffness to the bb area. On my Pinarello, there's no chainstay bridge, but the bb shell is beefed up some to maintain stiffness:

DiabloScott

1. They add a noticeable amount of stiffness in the rear triangle and consequently maintain the rear end spacing between the dropouts more effectively. A contention with no supporting evidence... and the spacing between the dropouts is maintained by the hub axle. There is (or was in the days of steel frame builders) a lot of lore based on guesswork and superstition, in addition to experience and craftsmanship.

Even though the bridge is a useful addition, it can be eliminated. Exactly... it can be eliminated and it's useful if you want to mount a fender.

It's beefed up to make the connection between the stays and the BB stronger, not to make the rear triangle stiffer... because it doesn't.

Here's a thread from Rec.bicycles.tech on the matter with real measurements!

RBTlink.

BTW, brake bridges don't add any strength or stiffness either.
Sorry to hijack tomd7's wonderful thread.

tomd7

Thanks for the diverging viewpoints on chainstay bridges It looks like on my bike that, if there were a chainstay bridge, the rear wheel wouldn't be able to be fit into or removed from the dropout as it would hit the downtube.

If anyone has any other thoughts about the bike make, let me know; otherwise, thanks for the info!

bbattle

I'm thinking it's a Torelli.

bigbossman 

Just as a data point - neither my Cinelli nor my De Rosa have chain-stay bridges.

realestvin7

I'd roll it. What seatpost diameter?

tomd7

I'm back with more photos and info. Took the fork out and there are no splines or markings on the steer tube. Just several faint rings near the top below the threads and at the bottom near the crown.

realestvin7 - The seatpost is a 26.8mm and it fits snugly. I'm wondering, however, if that was the original size. See the below pics--the cutout in the back of the seattube where it clamps gets narrower from bottom to top and the bottom of the cutout bows outward slightly away from the seatpost. Is this indicative of clamping a slightly smaller post in a slightly larger tube? If not, it's 26.8mm From looking at pics on this site and others, I've never seen a Columbus Aelle or straight gauge bike with internal cable routing, but maybe I haven't been looking hard enough?

Also have some pics of the brake bridge--it looks quite like the Cinelli 506 bridge on VeloBase (minus the logo of course), but maybe there are a bunch of others that look the same.

unworthy1

Gipiemme also made a brake bridge that looks just like this, theirs might have the name faintly stamped on the center, but you'd need to strip the PC if you wanted to look (not recommending that). Can't say whether the seat post clamp looks pinched or not, if it is it's not by much. You might have to take it to a LBS with accurate sizers to determine if it's ovalized or needs reaming and a larger size, but I doubt that it would go to 27.2. You might have something with Japanese tubing ( where 26.8 is a fairly common size) or a mixed tube set, and going with that possibility it might be custom built, maybe in the US.

tomd7

Thanks unworthy1. It definitely has an an Italian-sized 70mm bb. Maybe US custom build using that with Japanese tubes? Weird.

If the test of flicking the metal tubes to see what sound it makes is an indicator: top tube and downtube--nice clear metallic ring; seattube--more of a slightly metallic thunk.

Chombi

Could it be a CBT? I think I've seen CBT frames for sale with similar details.

Chombi