Puget Pounder

So I am taking a Sante headset off of my Miyata 1200 and was going to replace it with a Tange (?) one and the cups just slide right into the headtube and are super loose.

I assume that the Sante headset is a ISO while the headset I had was JIS. Can anyone confirm that?

Does anyone know of a decent ISO headset (as long as it's not those really cheap ones with the flat top cup with the textured perimeter) with a low stack height?

Puget Pounder

bizump.

bigbossman 

Off the top of my head - JIS cups are 27.2mm and ISO are 30.2mm, I believe. So yeah - if the Tange just drops right in you have a mismatch.

I have a Tange Levin installed in my Palo Alto, and recommend it. It is about the lowest stack height that I could find (~33mm), is a nice shiny classic looking chrome steel, and works very well. Plus it is inexpensive, at around $20.

miamijim

Shimano cartridge headsets are nice.....plenty of options out there in ISO headsets.

Make sure you measue the crown race....ISO headsets are available with either 26.4 or 27.0 races.

unworthy1

I'm referencing Sutherland's and the published specs for inside headtube for press-fit cups/races for both ISO and JIS is 30.0mm. Campy/Italian is 30.2mm. If you have a sloppy fit it could be that the head tube has become oval or you have two examples that are way on opposite ends of the tolerance spectrum. The tube should be reamed just 0.2mm undersized for a tight press-fit (so 29.8mm)...measure this. I agree that a Tange Levin is a fine replacement, but again going by these specs (which may not be up-to-date) the Sante S.H. is 33.4 and Levin is 37.8...Levin CD (alloy) is 35.8 so unless there's some more called Levin that are shorter, you may have a stack height issue.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

This is very important advice.

bigbossman 

Stack height for the Tange Levin is 33.4:

https://www.treefortbikes.com/product...CDS-1-270.html

https://www.cycleclubsports.com/p-343...et-chrome.aspx

Maybe there are different versions, so if so be careful about ordering. But the 33.4 is the one I have.

wrk101

If it is close, green loctite is a good gap filler.

bigbossman 

EDIT: - You know it's funny..... a lot of vendors that sell these things do not include the stack height in the description. You'd think they wouldn't want to leave out a critical dimension like that, but they do. Buyer beware!

Just queried Jenson, via on-line chat:

https://www.jensonusa.com/store/produ...d+Headset.aspx

"The Tange-Seiki Levin CDS 1" threaded headset in constructed of steel and features 5/32" ball bearings. Levin CDS •30.2 cups •Click for assistance identifying headset technical measurements and S.H.I.S (Standardized Headset Identification System) Steerer Tube: 1" Threaded Headset Type: 1" Standard Cups S.H.I.S Upper: EC30 S.H.I.S. Clamp Diameter: 25.4-24tpi S.H.I.S Lower: EC30 Crown Race: 26.4 Defined Color: Black Color: Black

Stack Height: 33.4 mm

Bearing Type: 5/32" Ball Material: Steel Weight: 149.0 g Catalog Page: 539 Invoice Description: Tange Levin CDS 1" Threaded 26.4 Black Manufacturer Part Number: LV-CDS 26.4 Black CP Country of Origin: JP "

Road Fan

This is a point I've seen several times - that there is a range of products called Levin, and they don't all have the same dimensions.

miamijim

I'm kind of thinking thats very wrong but dont have time to reference amnufacturers data at the moment.....

Capecodder

I'm sure ISO and JIS were always 30.0 but are now available in only a 30.2 size..... The only difference were the crawn race ISO 26.4 and JIS 27.0 inside diameter.

bigbossman 

Huh - I don't think so... see the Sheldon Brown chart:
https://sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html

I remember when I was building the Palo Alto, I had a bunch of 80's Japanese headsets that were take-off's form bikes I'd stripped here and there, and they all dropped into the Italian headtube with a lot of slop to spare. I had to buy an ISO headset to get the correct fit.

The cup sleeve diameters are different.

Here - found another reference on the web. Looks like unworthy1 is right re: diameters:

"JIS cups have a diameter of 30.0mm where they are pressed into the frame. ISO
is 30.2mm. On normal frames, the JIS cups will be loose. This will cause
dodgy steering and braking and if ridden, and will cause headset cup and
frame damage due to the loose fit.

Second difference is the crown race. JIS is 27.0mm. ISO is 26.4mm. The
JIS race will rattle around on a normal fork. It will be completely
unusable."

bigbossman 

Another source, the Park Tool website:
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...dset-standards

Also, the thread on my experience with this very issue:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...alo-Alto-build

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

That darn Sheldon Brown article about headsets led me horribly astray when attempting to fit a new headset for my Team Miyata.

What tripped me up in that Chart in that article is that the listing for "ISO" says that its got a 26.4mm crown race and 30.2mm Cups.
What it neglects to mention is that you can also get a headset with 30.2mm cups and a 27.0 mm crown race. (example: Tange Levin CDS)

What it comes down to is if your bike takes 30.2mm cups, you need to measure the crown race to see if its 26.4 or 27.0. It could be either.

Puget Pounder

Thanks for the input guys. I'm fairly sure the headtube is fine as the frame is minty and the Sante headset will refit just fine. Looks like the headtube uses the larger diameter. I'll take a measurement for the crown race and order an ISO headset with the corresponding race size.

miamijim

Exactly and this is what I've been preaching for years.

JIS: 30.0 cups
ISO/Standard: 30.2 cups.

Both JIS and ISO/Standard headset are/were avaialble with 26.4 or 27.0 fork races. Period.

Capecodder

This is what had me conused till bigbossman made his comment to my post, and I went to Sheldons site reread it. It ca be very misleading.

unworthy1

Well I guess this is yet another "nomenclature" problem, it's clear that the JIS standard for pressed-in cups/races is 30.0 diameter, but Sutherland's is also clear that the other size (30.2) is not what they call ISO, but "Campy" and "Italian". Their chart shows ISO to be 30.0, same as JIS, the Park Tool site calls 30.2 "Euro", not ISO. So at sometime either the ISO standards board adopted that 30.2 size, or people have been fast and loose with their labels...which given the square spindle taper controversy, doesn't surprise me.
BTW, Sutherland's also lists "French" and "Raleigh" as 30.2... but "English" and "Alex Moulton" as 30.0..."Austrian and East German" a crazy 30.8 and "BMX" a super-crazy 32.7, and this all for 1 inch HS, not even scratching the over-sized stuff.
YRMV, good reason to buy a digital caliper and use it.

Iowegian

Cane Creek calls the 30.2 size '1" Professional', as opposed to 30.0 for JIS. They also state that there are lots of variations and combinations and suggest measuring before ordering. https://www.canecreek.com/manuals/Hea...%20Rev%20E.pdf

Captain Blight

Okay, I don't feel bad about posting this (tangential) question:

The reasons for asking this are complex and embarassing, but will a Miche Primato 1" threadless headset work in a mid-70's French frame (probably St-Etienne region build)? Tubes are 531, but the label indicates French sizing. I *just* got it back from Wyganowski's shop yesterday and haven't really had time to check it over. I just know that there may be some tube-size variations.

unworthy1

My guess is "yes", the French head tube should be reamed for 30.2 and since other Miche products are Campy-friendly they should be 30.2 too, threadless or not. This is only a guess, measure to be sure.