Rate The Italians...
09-03-11, 05:04 PM
#126
Senior Member
I do also see where the OP is coming from. The general concensus among many is it is this way.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
09-03-11, 05:07 PM
#127
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Location: Lancaster County, PA
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Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
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I do also see where the OP is coming from. The general concensus among many is it is this way.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
09-03-11, 05:35 PM
#129
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Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
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09-03-11, 06:04 PM
#130
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Bikes: 1970 Holdsworth Mistral, Vitus 979, Colnago Primavera, Corratec Hydracarbon, Massi MegaTeam, 1935 Claud Butler Super Velo, Carrera Virtuoso, Viner, 1953 Claud Butler Silver Jubilee, 1954 Holdsworth Typhoon, 1966 Claud Butler Olympic Road, 1982 Claud
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Viners are incredible value in my experience, I absolutely love mine (Columbus SLX with chromed stays).
I'd really like a Gios Torino or Colnago Master as well!
I'd really like a Gios Torino or Colnago Master as well!
09-03-11, 06:44 PM
#131
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I do also see where the OP is coming from. The general concensus among many is it is this way.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
Contributions in cycling technology development by other nations can not be underestimated: for example US and Japan are important. With the Italians Nuovo Record would probably still have been the standard.
The culture in the country were I live, Holland, has more up with cycling and participating in and enjoying professional racing has always been popular too. Our neighbours, the Flemish, are probably the No.1 professional cycling fans. For them is cycling what speedskating is for us. Merckx raced an Italian bike, what is a point for the Italians.
Italy has a craft tradition: Sure and an appreciation for all things that make live 'good'. They do also know that others know that that is the case. They sell us the kind of stuff we're expecting they sell us. This includes the very fine bikes discussed (but nicer than in build quality than a Nagasawa?), but also industrial output that is still quite highly regarded.
09-03-11, 06:49 PM
#132
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Bikes: '39 Hobbs, '58 Marastoni, '73 Italian custom, '75 Wizard, '76 Wilier, '78 Tom Kellogg, '79 Colnago Super, '79 Sachs, '81 Masi Prestige, '82 Cuevas, '83 Picchio Special, '84 Murray-Serotta, '85 Trek 170, '89 Bianchi, '90 Bill Holland, '94 Grandis
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The genius is in the design and overall aesthetic. And the generally very clean execution. They're a mini design study.
If you can't find a Nagasawa, look for a Samson. He had a couple of really exquisite frames in the Tange booth at NAHBS in Indy. A well-known framebuilder told me they were the best frames in the building.
09-03-11, 06:54 PM
#133
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Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories and knowledge of Italian bikes.
Soon, I'll be scouring e-bay and CL to see if I can find my dream bike. You guys have opened up my mind and made me aware of so many different brands that I had forgotten about or never even heard of. Zullo, Tommassino, Pogliagi's are all brands I forgot about. I think I'll be much more open-minded now in my selection, although I think Bottecchia will remain on top. Brand recognition does mean something to me and I fondly remember a red, white and green one that oozed "passione Italiano" that a friend of mine had as a teenager. That might be a silly reason, but it is more of reason than I can give for any of the other makers.
Again, any thoughts on Bottecchia? I'll be looking for anything up to the mid 80's.
Good stuff guys, keep on schooling me on the Italians!
Soon, I'll be scouring e-bay and CL to see if I can find my dream bike. You guys have opened up my mind and made me aware of so many different brands that I had forgotten about or never even heard of. Zullo, Tommassino, Pogliagi's are all brands I forgot about. I think I'll be much more open-minded now in my selection, although I think Bottecchia will remain on top. Brand recognition does mean something to me and I fondly remember a red, white and green one that oozed "passione Italiano" that a friend of mine had as a teenager. That might be a silly reason, but it is more of reason than I can give for any of the other makers.
Again, any thoughts on Bottecchia? I'll be looking for anything up to the mid 80's.
Good stuff guys, keep on schooling me on the Italians!
.. but a Pogliaghi ('pole -yah-ghee') that is early enough (say, under #8000 perhaps) would be quite a collectible, and reek of mojo (to cite just one example). However, you may not want something that old (pre-1970), and that's fine. That multi-colored Bottecchia that is posted in this thread is pretty zippy-looking, and is fairly modern, so if that's your thinking, that may be a good one for you to seek....
09-03-11, 06:58 PM
#134
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+1
The genius is in the design and overall aesthetic. And the generally very clean execution. They're a mini design study.
If you can't find a Nagasawa, look for a Samson. He had a couple of really exquisite frames in the Tange booth at NAHBS in Indy. A well-known framebuilder told me they were the best frames in the building.
The genius is in the design and overall aesthetic. And the generally very clean execution. They're a mini design study.
If you can't find a Nagasawa, look for a Samson. He had a couple of really exquisite frames in the Tange booth at NAHBS in Indy. A well-known framebuilder told me they were the best frames in the building.
09-03-11, 08:31 PM
#135
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Nagasawa may very well be a very good frame, even better than most Italian frames, but to the uninitiated, it would likely go un-noticed for the most part. Now a decaled Colnago or a red, white and green Bottecchia with Campy gear would sing as something special to even non cycling folks who look at it.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
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09-03-11, 08:39 PM
#136
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09-03-11, 08:41 PM
#137
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Nagasawa may very well be a very good frame, even better than most Italian frames, but to the uninitiated, it would likely go un-noticed for the most part. Now a decaled Colnago or a red, white and green Bottecchia with Campy gear would sing as something special to even non cycling folks who look at it.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
09-03-11, 09:10 PM
#139
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[QUOTE=753proguy;13167586]So you think that the workmanship on a Confente and a Guerciotti are the same? I think not, sir. 
[/QUOTE
See: https://www.ciclorestauri.it/componen...ycles-registry
[/QUOTESee: https://www.ciclorestauri.it/componen...ycles-registry
09-03-11, 09:34 PM
#142
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Nagasawa may very well be a very good frame, even better than most Italian frames, but to the uninitiated, it would likely go un-noticed for the most part. Now a decaled Colnago or a red, white and green Bottecchia with Campy gear would sing as something special to even non cycling folks who look at it.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
09-03-11, 09:46 PM
#143
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[QUOTE=sisddwg;13175291]
Thanks! People should see the 'one made in Montorio' from ca. 1970 at that website. Amazing.
Is that your website? Mine is pictured there....
So you think that the workmanship on a Confente and a Guerciotti are the same? I think not, sir. [/QUOTE
See: https://www.ciclorestauri.it/componen...ycles-registry
[/QUOTESee: https://www.ciclorestauri.it/componen...ycles-registry
Is that your website? Mine is pictured there....
09-04-11, 03:04 AM
#145
Senior Member
It would be stupid to deny Italy has a meaningfull position in professional road racing. Others can put a claim too, while Italy seems to get all the momentum. A somewhat critical attitude is what I have in this.
09-04-11, 03:07 AM
#146
Senior Member
Nagasawa may very well be a very good frame, even better than most Italian frames, but to the uninitiated, it would likely go un-noticed for the most part. Now a decaled Colnago or a red, white and green Bottecchia with Campy gear would sing as something special to even non cycling folks who look at it.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
I ride a Miyata and I really enjoy it, but most people who see it will ask me if it is Italian, and I say no of course. In their minds, Italian means a great road bike, Japanese means Toyota like dependability, but white bread anonimity.
09-04-11, 06:25 AM
#147
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But what was the first major professional road race won using a slant parallelogram derailleur? That's kind of the point ...
09-04-11, 06:51 AM
#148
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I borrowed a friend's Ducati 750 Desmo Super Sport way back when - incredible bike! Only 6 gears, if I recall ...
Never saw a Moto Morini, but those four little cylinders running 12k rpm are an amazing thought.
But I keep forgetting motorcycles are not the point here.
09-04-11, 07:17 AM
#149
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09-04-11, 07:41 AM
#150
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Which one's laterally stiffest while remaining vertically compliant? 