Road Fan

Again, like you have a chance!

Road Fan

I thought the Guzzis, and I'm pretty sure about the '70s models, had balance because of the 90 degree cylinder angle. In any case, I rode with a bud on the cafe race model quite a bit, and it had significant twist.

Picchio Special

Well, not since the restraining order ...

KonAaron Snake 

It seems like you're more after a bike that others will look at and that will turn heads...as opposed to the ride or workmanship. You want brand recognition.

I'd go Colnago...since they're more mass produced, others have heard more of them and they tend to be garish and bling-ish.

BTW - my soulless Miyata 916 was a better bike, for me, than most Italians and my American made Merlin was as good a bike as I'd ever ridden until I got my custom. I've been on plenty of uninspiring (performance and aesthetically) Italians. One of the worst made bikes I've ever seen was an SLX top end model Scapin...utter turd! I mean, it was almost French in work quality. When you're looking for ride quality, the key is to match your riding preferences, weight, size, etc. with the right bike...and that bike can be French, Italian, Japanese...etc. It's also having the right saddle and tires...which make far more difference than what country the frame came from.

KonAaron Snake 

That's exactly where I'm at with Tina Fey! In another 6 months I can begin courting her again!

gomango

I have two major strikes against me this summer.

1) Riding a "Colnago" Extreme Power as often as I get a chance.

...and loving every minute of it.

2) It's carbon fiber.

At least it hasn't exploded!

gridplan

Same with me, except mine isn't the Extreme Power model. It's my favorite bike to ride.

balindamood

My 2-cents.

It depends upon what exactly the OP is after. If he (she) is looking for a hand-built frame by a small shop and traditional methods, such work is not limited to Italy and can be found from most westerned European countries, US, and Japan. The rub is that such situations are often superceded by the success of the brand. As has been pointed out in a previous post, many small builders started to expand to meet demand based upon the success of the brand, and the bikes they produced later are different than what they produced earlier (Colnago, Masi, Trek to a certain extent, and others). To get that good-ole-handcrafty feel, you need to get an early example, rather than a later one. Others generally remained (or continue to remain) small throughout their existence (3Rensho, Sachs, Nagasawa to a point). Value can be a fleeting thing, and reputation/sensation thends to make-up $$ where scarsity wains, and can even make up for some quality as well. For each of the famous lines, there are an even larger number of smaller makers/brands which produced a very fine product, even had a fairly modest production, that never achieved the notoriety but still made very nice bikes (Romic, Faggin, Zunlow, Butler...Claude and Geoffry, Toei, others). Then there are the tourches for hire, the true craftsmen, that made/make frames not only under their own name, but have made for other famous mars as well (Conefette, Appel, Moulton, Shrubb to name only a few). Finally, you have the big builders who make/made a complete line of bikes by the millions, but some of their top-of-the-line offerings are as good as any (Puch/Austro-Daimler, Schwinn, Atala, Le Jeune, Panasonic, Miyata, others). Even in a land where 95% of "bicycles" come from a big box store, good quality bikes are not that difficult to find.

If he is looking for Italian style of racing bike; and they generally had their own philosophy as did the French, later Japanese, Brittish/Benelux, then that is a different issue. You can certainly get the Italian style bike from other sources (Moulton, Austro-Daimler, early Ritchey's, and early Japanese). In some cases these makers started by copying Italian designs. In other cases, they started with them design and modified/improved/developed upon it.

It boils down to what the OP wants. There is a romance of a boutique-built Italian frame of certain origins. There is a the same "swag" for certian custom built/made-to-measure frames as well. This is not a bad thing, and there is a value in it. It is a matter of if the OP wants to pay the premium for the reputation.

My list (kinda in order):

-Masi pre-'74
-De Rosa pre-'82 or so
-Cinelli pre-'80
-Colnago pre-'77

2nd-string:

-Guerciotti pre-'84
-Ciocc pre-'84
-Pogolitti (can't spell it...like alot of others if you haven't noticed), Pre-'85


FWIW- My favorite handling road/race bike is an '86 Faggin. It does not have the same sensation as any of those listed above (many of which I have actually ridden, but not owned), nor is not the finest Columbus tubing with maticulously filed lugs with the builder's signature attached to the top tube, but it is the best...for me.

Picchio Special

Joe - is that you?

balindamood

No.

Giacomo 1 

No, I don't care much about turning heads. The discussion just kind of turned in that direction, so my response might have sounded as though I want to turn heads, but that is not it. I want a classic Italian bike that I enjoy riding, that has that hand built feel and yes, it has to have some soul to it. I would not mind at all having a small boutique makers bike, because the real craftsman resided in these small shops, but my budget would not likely allow that.

So yes, it would likely be for me -

Bottecchia
Colnago
Ciocc
Basso
Masi
DeRosa - expensive, I know

And you might have read that I ride a Miyata to and I really like it, but I think I like it like Toyota owners like their cars. Strictly dependable and it has value, no sexiness, no allure, no real passion behind it. I compare an Italian made bike to a Ferrari - they may have alot of quirks, bad door handles, lights that don't work, rattles and squeaks, but in the end, there isn't another car that can compare to it...

Picchio Special

It absolutely would! As long as you don't have to have a famous name, and can be a bit patient.

One of the members here, Citoyen du Monde, has just such bikes for sale on occasion, and at least some - probably many - are definitely in your stated $800-1000 range. I can recall several neat ones offhand.

Road Fan

Sounds like a tale for Foo!

Road Fan

My experience with a limited few Italian bikes is that mechanically they as good as their parts, tuning, and maintenance are.

Based on the experience of a few friends, and Picchio's emphasis on small shop bikes, I think there are loads of various items to look for. And it's hard to get a set of consistent assessments from friends and on-line bike buds. But one I've heard a lot about, from friends who own them, are Rossin. Not expensive or widely experienced, but both of these experienced riders say their Rossin is one of their main rides in the SL/SLX tubesets. One has more modern steel bikes as well and likes those better, but still keeps the Rossin in his stable.

I'd be looking for a Rossin myself, but I want a current-tubing top-notch steel bike.

gomango

De Rosas don't have to be all that expensive.

I passed on a Professional and a San Remo locally that were eventually sold for less than $700 a piece.

They were well ridden bikes, yet had no major flaws.

New tires, brake pads,and a basic tune wouldn't have added more than $125.

True, you can spend a lot more than that online, but these would have been cool.

Giacomo 1 

Well, patience I have - because I don't yet have the money!

But seriously, it's good to know my budget might get me a boutique made bike. I didn't think it would. I kind of like the thought of owning something that is so individual and unique. So much opportunity here!

miamijim

Its all realtive......

Rate them? On what?

What the older crowd is fond of?
What the younger crowd is fond of?
Build quality?
Race history?
Who trained who?
From a historical perspective?

In general it seems as if De Rosa and Colnago both work their way to the top of the list. Both are considerably different 'builder's', believe what internet lore you'd like. At the end of the day certain makes brong more $$$ than others and that in itself is a big part of the rating system.

I look at a combination of history and build quality but that in itself begs one to ask, "what is build quality?" Is it thin, long point lugs? Pantographing? Consistency from frame to frame? In all honesty I've never been overly impressed with Italian 'build quality' which shouldnt be confused with craftsmanship. In general the quality of Italian chrome work is about the worst you'll find, they tend to have delicate paint and some haveatrocious decals.......but those flaws dont mean tcraftsmanship isnt there.

I dont buy into the, 'but X held the torch and brazed it together'. Big deal. How many torches did Masi hold in California? None. I'd prefer to have a skilled craftsman holding the torch who's building to a skilled craftsman's design. The best brazer in the world cant build a great bike if he's build to bad design or concept and a great designer cant build a great bike if the brazer sucks.

I've onwed a variety of bikes over the years, only a few have been mentioned here, I've worked on some I haven't owned. My opinions are simply that opinions.....other disagree, I want them to. But I want to understand why they disagree with me, its how I learn.

From a build quality perspective the best frame I've ever owned is a my Dave Moulton Fuso follwed by my Waterford Paramount. Both have superbe build quality detail, the Moulton has a double mitered seat tube/ down tube junction which is something my De Rosa doesnt have. Strip the paint off a Waterford Paramount and no one could tell you it wasn't Italian.

At the end of the day Italians are Italians and they're what people tend to collect.....based on whatt I've owned and worked on:

Colnago (It just rides so nice.....sooooo nice)
De Rosa
Palletti
Basso (nice bike but not in the Palleti, De Rosa, Colnago)
Giordana (Gita imported, Italian build)
Guerciotti (owned both pre and post TSD bikes. Superbe chroming on the TSD bike)
Tommasini (major flaw in the brazing/chrome work. Never should have left Italy the way it did. Also the most highly crafted bike bike based on decals or lack thereof)
Bottechia (Built from frameset fro customer. Thought the chrome work was mediocre and the paint work edging sloppy. Delicate paint)
Rossin (Didnt like a single thing about it)

Again...simply my opinions, it doesnt mean I'm right or wrong and it doesnt your right or wrong.

iab

You'll never know if you like a Petrus or not unless you drink it. And once you drink it, you may never want to drink a zin or cab. You don't have to "learn" anything. You just need to know if you like it or not. All the knowledge in the world is meaningless until you actually experience it. That knowledge can enhance the experience but it is in no means a prerequisite.

You know you can damage a brand. Happens all the time. Happens quick. Look at Sony, Toyota and Dell. A brand can take a drive in a month and take years to rebuild.

Also, I hope you are not implying I went nuclear. If you are, please show me the exact quote where it happened. I asked you a simple question. That is all.

afilado

Yes!

J

Italuminium

Disagree. Respectfully though. I've drunk a Tricastin 42, a Margeaux 61, a few Santenays at the top end of the bunch, Barolo's, Montrachets... Yet I still wouldn't want to drink that kind of wines everyday. A special wine needs a special moment. I own a bike that was in its day at pro tour level with the correct bits, but I wouldn't ride it for my daily commute, bleary eyed to the uni in the morning. Every bike has it's place and time.

iab

Good point. My commuter is a bike I don't worry much if I hit a pothole. But there is no way I'll ever drink a cheap tequilla ever again, even in a margarita, on any occasion. I'm not much of a wine drinker.

Italuminium

Ah, tequilla. I'll never touch that stuff again. I like my fine wines though. Besides, my dad does that for a hobby instead of messing around with bottom brackets and oxalic acid so it's nice to have a quality time thing together.

ciocc_cat

Yup . . . fine bicycles and fine beers are very much alike. They both start with "B" and the appreciation for them is highly subjective.

I happen to like my Ciocc not just because of the ride qualities, but because Signore Pelizzoli and I are kindred spirits . . . but that's a whole 'nother story.

AZORCH

I LOVE my Freschi! I think it rates right up there with the best of the Italians.

Italuminium

Booze, beer, birds, broads, bikes, Brahms, Beethoven, Bach. The best things in life are B.