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Old 09-23-11, 10:44 AM   #1
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Another pet peeve ... or am I wrong?

When a bike is described as "full Campy record" and it has modolo brakes, or Ofmega cranks etc...

or a newer bike described as "Full Dura Ace" when it has FSA cranks...

To me a "Full Dura Ace/Campy Record"etc means it has the full group. Shifters, deraillers, brakes, cranks, headset, BB, pedals. Or at least as full a group as was available when the bike was built.
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Old 09-23-11, 11:56 AM   #2
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Yes, I find it annoying too. If you're gonna call it a full group in a modern sense I would expect: RD, FD, calipers, shifters, crank, chain, cassette. Things like headset, pedals, stem, seatpost, and hubs are so variable anyway...technically if those are available they should be included but generally those previous seven items are what I would consider a full group.

Vintage can be all over like in the case of Dura-Ace...stem, seatpost, etc. Does a full DA7400 group have to have the stem and seatpost?
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Old 09-23-11, 11:57 AM   #3
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Misrepresentation, either intentionally or ignorance.
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Old 09-23-11, 12:04 PM   #4
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Yes, I find it annoying too. If you're gonna call it a full group in a modern sense I would expect: RD, FD, calipers, shifters, crank, chain, cassette. Things like headset, pedals, stem, seatpost, and hubs are so variable anyway...technically if those are available they should be included but generally those previous seven items are what I would consider a full group.

Vintage can be all over like in the case of Dura-Ace...stem, seatpost, etc. Does a full DA7400 group have to have the stem and seatpost?
+ previous 7 items
- chain
+ hubs

Doesn't make sense to me to include the chain, but not the hubs
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Old 09-23-11, 12:05 PM   #5
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To me a "Full Dura Ace/Campy Record"etc means it has the full group. Shifters, deraillers, brakes, cranks, headset, BB, pedals.
Agreed.

I can see a C&V bike rarely having such, but all the more reason to not state it if it is not true.
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Old 09-23-11, 12:19 PM   #6
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To me a "Full Dura Ace/Campy Record"etc means it has the full group. Shifters, deraillers, brakes, cranks, headset, BB, pedals. Or at least as full a group as was available when the bike was built.
If it's described as "full group" I'd expect hubs and seatpost as well (if they exist for that group). But I am a little anal about people saying what they mean.
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Old 09-23-11, 12:22 PM   #7
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+ previous 7 items
- chain
+ hubs

Doesn't make sense to me to include the chain, but not the hubs
So in the case of modern DA is it not a full group unless Dura-Ace wheels are included?
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Old 09-23-11, 12:24 PM   #8
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Its typical. If you buy a fair number of used bikes, you will get used to people getting details wrong. That can include: size, brand, model, frame tubing (grade, brand, type), component brand, component model, or whatever. Typically, the ones that get all of the details right, also ask the highest price. Myself, I would rather buy at a lower price with sketchy/wrong information, than pay full market for a perfect description.

Its when the bike is clearly damaged (been wrecked) and someone puts it up as pristine, thats when I get upset. Of course, I don't buy the damaged bike, but some fool will, and it is bad for the used bike market.

My favorite of all time was the bike ad I saw in the nearby Craigs List: one word, "bycicle". Thats right, the seller even mis-spelled bicycle. No pictures, no details, nothing. I called him for some details, only thing he could tell me was that it was "it blue, and its a real nice bike". Drove one hour to see it, mainly so I could tell the story later. Turned out to be a 1988 Cannondale SR1000, full Sante group, etc.... I was the only one who responded in TWO weeks, guy threw in a mtb and a floor pump.

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Old 09-23-11, 12:57 PM   #9
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R-S, IMHO a full group is a bike built with everything that can be attributable to that group at the time. In about '97-'98 I built a full Ultegra bike which included:
-both derailleurs
-brakeset
-integrated shifters
-BB
-crankset
-SPD pedals
-headset (w/600 stencil)
-aero seatpost
-hubs and skewers
-cassette
-chain

I like descriptions that read "Full XXX except for..". I've seen mountain bikes advertized as having a XT group, when in fact only the RD is XT.

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Old 09-23-11, 01:09 PM   #10
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I'll echo everyone else - it's annoying, but par for the course. I would prefer "mostly Campagnolo Record".

I generally just list the build components.
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Old 09-23-11, 01:24 PM   #11
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My favorite of all time was the bike ad I saw in the nearby Craigs List: one word, "bycicle". Thats right, the seller even mis-spelled bicycle. No pictures, no details, nothing. I called him for some details, only thing he could tell me was that it was "it blue, and its a real nice bike". Drove one hour to see it, mainly so I could tell the story later. Turned out to be a 1988 Cannondale SR1000, full Sante group, etc.... I was the only one who responded in TWO weeks, guy threw in a mtb and a floor pump.
You suck you know
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Old 09-23-11, 01:29 PM   #12
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Some high end bikes were originally delivered with, for example, "mostly Campy Record" because for whatever reason a particular Campy component wasn't suitable for that particular model bike.

A case in point is the early seventies P15-9 Paramount; it had a Campy Nouvo Record 36-49-54T triple crank and a 14-31T wide gear range freewheel, but the only suitable Campy RD was the crappy Gran Tourismo, so Schwinn used a long cage Shimano Crane (early pre Dura-Ace) RD rebranded as a Schwinn-Approved GT-300 Le Tour. Also, since the P15-9 was designed to accommodate fenders, the then new Campy side-pull Record brakes couldn't provide enough clearance for fenders, so Schwinn used Weinmann center-pulls.

If I had one of these bikes for sale should I spell out the individual components, say "as originally equipped", or say "mostly Campy Record/Nouvo Record"?
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Old 09-23-11, 01:32 PM   #13
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Old 09-23-11, 01:41 PM   #14
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So in the case of modern DA is it not a full group unless Dura-Ace wheels are included?
Well, I get what your reasoning for not including the wheels because they are so variable, but so are chains. My rationale is that hubs play more of an important part in the group over the chain. You are right in that a group in the CV sense is different from the modern sense. To me, the absolutely minimum to call it a group is Shifters, derailleurs, cranks, and calipers. If you go to the distinction to throw "full" group, then you should be in for a dollar.
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Old 09-23-11, 01:42 PM   #15
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Some high end bikes were originally delivered with, for example, "mostly Campy Record" because for whatever reason a particular Campy component wasn't suitable for that particular model bike.

A case in point is the early seventies P15-9 Paramount; it had a Campy Nouvo Record 36-49-54T triple crank and a 14-31T wide gear range freewheel, but the only suitable Campy RD was the crappy Gran Tourismo, so Schwinn used a long cage Shimano Crane (early pre Dura-Ace) RD rebranded as a Schwinn-Approved GT-300 Le Tour. Also, since the P15-9 was designed to accommodate fenders, the then new Campy side-pull Record brakes couldn't provide enough clearance for fenders, so Schwinn used Weinmann center-pulls.

If I had one of these bikes for sale should I spell out the individual components, say "as originally equipped", or say "mostly Campy Record/Nouvo Record"?
I'd probably word it as:

"Original components, mostly Campagnolo Record".
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Old 09-23-11, 01:50 PM   #16
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I concour and am very particular about it. I've gone to great lengths to 'complete' groups on my bikes. In some cases I've patiently waited years to find parts like Dura Ace 74XX pedals, headsets, seatposts and BB's. The only Campy part that's somewhat difficult to find are SR headsets that aren't toast.

My other pet peeved are matching rims and tires, I'll toss a perfectly good tire or rim before I ride mis-matched.
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Old 09-24-11, 07:46 AM   #17
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I concour and am very particular about it. I've gone to great lengths to 'complete' groups on my bikes. In some cases I've patiently waited years to find parts like Dura Ace 74XX pedals, headsets, seatposts and BB's. The only Campy part that's somewhat difficult to find are SR headsets that aren't toast.

My other pet peeved are matching rims and tires, I'll toss a perfectly good tire or rim before I ride mis-matched.
I am ashamed to admit that I am the same way WRT tires.

I think the practice of (mis)describing a bike's group as "full" is so rampant that new cyclists unknowingly describe their bikes as such. I have a friend who is relatively new to cycling. He just got a brand new, very nice high end racing bike (Focus Izalco) that he described to me as "full Dura Ace group". Then I saw it, and while it *is* a very nice bike, it has FSA cranks/BB and Tektro brakes. Not to mention Mavic Ksyriums and Look Pedals. He was so excited that I didn't correct his misuse (IMO) of the term "group". As far as I could tell, the only Dura Ace bits on the bike were the brifters, and both deraillers. There is a "Dura Ace 7900" decal on the bike that is the only non-Focus decal on the bike.

So what exactly defines a group these days? It seems a lot smaller than when I was younger.
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Old 09-24-11, 11:51 AM   #18
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I am ashamed to admit that I am the same way WRT tires.
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So what exactly defines a group these days? It seems a lot smaller than when I was younger.
It certainly is getting smaller. These days a wheelset seems guaranteed to come from a specialist manufacturer. Ditto seatposts and even cranksets are coming from a different source than the rest of the group supplied with a built up bike. And, of course, pedals: a whole 'nother story

BTW, anyone else get a chuckle when a seller lists a part as "came from a Colnago/Masi/De Rosa", as if that's going to increase that part's value? I grin every time I read that drivel.

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Old 09-24-11, 11:58 AM   #19
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Misrepresentation, either intentionally or ignorance.

for the most part I am inclined to think the latter, but I do agreee the issue is frustrating.

another I find down right stupid is to list the bike as "Custom Built" and not be able to say what is custom built. was the frame built to a customers size or geomentry or was a stock frame built to a customers desire. lastly does the seller's '89 Schwinn not match the '92 catalog your looking at so it must be custom?
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Old 09-24-11, 01:15 PM   #20
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You want to see opportunistic language at work? Go searching for an old car on Craigslist - you'll never complain about bicycle shysters again.

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Old 09-24-11, 02:03 PM   #21
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You want to see opportunistic language at work? Go searching for an old car on Craigslist - you'll never complain about bicycle shysters again.

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are you refering to the AMC Matador I have listed? she certainly is a Cream Puff my Auntie only drove it to the store twice a week. well OK the store was 200 miles away but.....
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Old 09-24-11, 02:30 PM   #22
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are you refering to the AMC Matador I have listed? she certainly is a Cream Puff my Auntie only drove it to the store twice a week. well OK the store was 200 miles away but.....
This one?

http://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/cto/2610627893.html


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Old 09-24-11, 02:41 PM   #23
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"So THAT'S a Matador......."

If you remember that commercial, you're C&V, too.

BTW: Growing up a couple hours from Kenosha, we had Javelins, AMX's, and V8 Gremlins all over the place.
Yes, you could get a Gremlin with a V8. Styling-wise, AMC really had a different look.

Bike sellers tend to offer the highest level of component, than mention the other stuff in passing, if at all.
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Old 09-24-11, 02:51 PM   #24
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Not just any old V8, you could get it with a 340 Wedge motor with the 6-Pack. Apparently nothing was sacred in 1973.
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Old 09-24-11, 04:02 PM   #25
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Styling-wise, AMC really had a different look.
I suppose that's one way to put it...

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