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  1. #1
    lurks milky's Avatar
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    Identify that 70's Peugeot. Thread version 276453.34

    Hello all,

    I'm wondering what your collective thoughts are with regard to the following bike:
    The images were taken by the seller not me.
    Hyperlinks to save hot-linking high resolution images.

    Reynolds sticker + Lug
    http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3...0720111186.jpg
    Full bike shot
    http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3...0720111190.jpg
    Lugs + Head badge
    http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/2...0720111187.jpg
    Seat Post + Seat Stay lugs
    http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3...0720111180.jpg
    Filthy 49D + Serial number
    http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9...0720111192.jpg

    Things that jump out at me are:

    It's dirty!

    Reynolds sticker - French 531? Is this just 3 tubes with hi-tensile stays and forks?

    Decent looking French componentry (Larger diameter Simplex alloy seat post, Ideal saddle, Simplex shifters, Mafacs, Stronglight 49D, Alloy wheels (not sure if original), Possible evidence of tubulars at some stage due to the tyre scrapers attached to the brakes?

    Lack of top tube cable braze ons.

    Lack of chrome on rear stay.

    Nervex lugs

    Rear dropouts don't look stamped. When I zoom in enough I'm fairly confident "simplex" is written in the correct position. Mudguard eyelet noted.

    My guess, French 77' PS 10.

    Bike is located in Australia, in another city from me.
    -Chris

  2. #2
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Off the assumption its original.....

    Lugs: Not 'fancy' Nervex lugs. I dont know what they are but they're not the typical lug.
    Reynolds: 3 tubes. Horizontal '531' is 3 tube, diangonal '531' is full Reynolds.
    Model: Who knows. Peugeot made different models for different markets, its most similar to the 'PR10'. 'PS' models have 3 main tubes Reynolds with a Reynolds fork.

    '77 U.S. PR10 page 8: http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1977pdf.pdf
    '78 French PS and PR 10 pages 3&4: http://cyclespeugeot.com/PDFs/1977pdf.pdf

    '77 PR10:

    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  3. #3
    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    It's kinda painful to look at some of these period catalogue pics with weird looking saddle and seatpost setups (too far forward and kinda low for the frame size in this case) You have a feeling that the person who set up the bike for the photograph might not ride that much or at al....maybe it's the photographer's assistant who was too small for the bike??l..... The crank position for the pic could be better too...but at least they took it from the drive side!
    Chombi
    Last edited by Chombi; 10-12-11 at 05:44 PM.

  4. #4
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    It's a PA10. It has 3 main tubes 531. I can't tell if they're straight gauge or butted.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  5. #5
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    It's a PA10. It has 3 main tubes 531. I can't tell if they're straight gauge or butted.
    You must be thinking of a PR10. There's no Reynolds tubing at all in a PA10.

    I think I've pointed that out to you at least once before. I guess you don't believe me.

    PS10 is a new one on me, but I've never seen lugs like that on a PR10.

    The fork is the high tension steel one used on everything below PX10 in the seventies (on US models). You'll find a seam running down the back.

    Milky:

    "Tyre scrapers" are not evidence of tubulars. They work just as well on clinchers.
    Last edited by Grand Bois; 10-12-11 at 07:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    It's a PA10. It has 3 main tubes 531. I can't tell if they're straight gauge or butted.
    Looks like 3 main tubes are butted 531. The decal looks to have said 'renforcés' as in 'butted.'

    That sucker is beyond filthy-dirty, imo, fwiw. Scandalous to let a bike get that grotty.

  7. #7
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    Those are '70 - '76 decals , I think?

    The serial number *may* indicate a frame built in 1972, but I don't think it does, as my '75-ish Pug has a similar number (starts with a '2').

    Mine has the holy Mafac levers, which apparently debuted in 1975, so between that and the decals, I'm saying mine is 1975 (uh, 1975-ish, you never know with a Peugeot, they were worse than Raleigh about stuff).

  8. #8
    lurks milky's Avatar
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    Thanks to all, lots of constructive input as usual.
    This is what had me thinking PS 10.
    French Reynolds sticker (or does this still mean it could be from anywhere?)
    As well as this page apparently from the '77 French catalogue:
    -Chris

  9. #9
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
    You must be thinking of a PR10. There's no Reynolds tubing at all in a PA10.

    I think I've pointed that out to you at least once before. I guess you don't believe me.
    I believe you completely and categorically. The trouble is, I'm altogether too willing to believe my very leaky memory.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  10. #10
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    A couple of comments on the bike...the fork/crown doesn't have stickers and really doesn't look Reynolds...the Reynolds frame sticker is on the downtube, which indicates production after 1973...the rear stays aren't chromed...the lugs are "fancy" not plain Nervex, indicating a probable 1973 date for the bike (after 1974/5 PX10LE's had plain lugs), and the crank looks more like a SL 49D than a 93, so this is probably not a PX10.

    As to the frame sticker...the tubes probably are lugged Reynolds DB rather than straight guage. You could easily distinguish the two types by tapping the frame tubes with a metal rod or coin...DB tubes will give a higher pitched ring at the center (thinner tube) and lower pitched ring at the ends (thicker tube there). Regarding how to test the rear stays, thats difficult, but if they are chromed it's almost certain they are Reynolds 531. If they are painted, it's harder to say. You could take everything off the frame and weigh it. "Full 531" frames will weigh about 1/2 pound less than 3 tube 531 frames with high-tensile stays, but that's nit picking.

    This bike seems to be a higher end Peug, but not a PX10 for the purists, mainly because the fork and crank ain't right, and the rear stays are painted. It's worth fixing up, I think, but has been terribly neglected.

  11. #11
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neurocop View Post
    A couple of comments on the bike...the fork/crown doesn't have stickers and really doesn't look Reynolds...the Reynolds frame sticker is on the downtube, which indicates production after 1973...the rear stays aren't chromed...the lugs are "fancy" not plain Nervex, indicating a probable 1973 date for the bike (after 1974/5 PX10LE's had plain lugs), and the crank looks more like a SL 49D than a 93, so this is probably not a PX10.

    As to the frame sticker...the tubes probably are lugged Reynolds DB rather than straight guage. You could easily distinguish the two types by tapping the frame tubes with a metal rod or coin...DB tubes will give a higher pitched ring at the center (thinner tube) and lower pitched ring at the ends (thicker tube there). Regarding how to test the rear stays, thats difficult, but if they are chromed it's almost certain they are Reynolds 531. If they are painted, it's harder to say. You could take everything off the frame and weigh it. "Full 531" frames will weigh about 1/2 pound less than 3 tube 531 frames with high-tensile stays, but that's nit picking.

    This bike seems to be a higher end Peug, but not a PX10 for the purists, mainly because the fork and crank ain't right, and the rear stays are painted. It's worth fixing up, I think, but has been terribly neglected.
    I'm not sure where to start......

    Forks: PX10 were avaialbe with nervex and non-Nervex crowned forks. There seems to be no pattern.

    Fork decal: Without perusing all the pics on my HD I'd say the early PX10 from the 50's and early 60's didnt have them, late 60's through the mid 70's did, late 70's through 80's did but alot depended on decal scheme.

    Chrome stays: By '78 or so they were being phased in Europe. Many Px's have painted stays.

    Lugs: PX's were simultaneously available with both fancy and regulsr cut lugs. The OP's bike does NOT have fancy Nervex lugs.

    DT Reynolds decal: The decal was moved to the DT for '74 but that location is primarily used to ID early 70's bikes. I haven't seen ST Reynods decals on later bikes but the placement for bikes after '74 isn't written in stone.

    Date: NO way is that bike a '73....late 70's. The OP needs to check component date codes.

    http://cyclespeugeot.com/SerialNumbers.html
    http://cyclespeugeot.com/PX10ID.html
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    I'm not sure where to start......

    Forks: PX10 were avaialbe with nervex and non-Nervex crowned forks. There seems to be no pattern.

    Fork decal: Without perusing all the pics on my HD I'd say the early PX10 from the 50's and early 60's didnt have them, late 60's through the mid 70's did, late 70's through 80's did but alot depended on decal scheme.

    Chrome stays: By '78 or so they were being phased in Europe. Many Px's have painted stays.

    Lugs: PX's were simultaneously available with both fancy and regulsr cut lugs. The OP's bike does NOT have fancy Nervex lugs.

    DT Reynolds decal: The decal was moved to the DT for '74 but that location is primarily used to ID early 70's bikes. I haven't seen ST Reynods decals on later bikes but the placement for bikes after '74 isn't written in stone.

    Date: NO way is that bike a '73....late 70's. The OP needs to check component date codes.

    http://cyclespeugeot.com/SerialNumbers.html
    http://cyclespeugeot.com/PX10ID.html
    The OP's bike seems to have "ornate" scalloped (not plain) Nervex lugs, and these were phased out by Peugeot around 1974, so I'd have to say the bike is not a "late" 70's bike. It's definitely '74 or earlier. I'm going by the posted pics...

    Re the fork crown, the Reynolds forks on PX-10's could have "fancy" or "plain" crowns, but in either case the forks crowns from the 70's typically had a chromed fillet that the OP's bike lacks (it indeed any fillet), which makes me question the PX-10 lineage.

    Dating 70's Peug's is notoriously difficult, and SN's are of little help, but the phase out of fancy Nervex lugs around '74 IMHO is reliable indicator of bike DOB.
    A major issue seems to be the nature of the frame tubes: "full" Reynolds versus 531 "main tubes" plus something else for the stays and fork blades.

    PX10's should have Reynolds tubes and stays and forks. Ideally the bike in question should have the appropriate frame and fork stickers, but relying on stickers alone is not enough. It would be better to have ways to reliably determine the frame construction.

    Fortunately there are ways to determine what a frame is made of. Frame tubes can be tapped with a piece of metal, such as a coin, to determine whether they are butted or not. Regarding the rear stays, you an measure the tube diameter with a micrometer or vernier caliper. The "non-531" stays are a couple of millimeters smaller than 531 stays. You can also strip the frame and weight it. A "full" 531 will weigh 200-300 grams less than a "main tubes only" 531 frame.

  13. #13
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    Now really, this isn't a tough one.
    It is a PR-10. For certain, period. Approx. vintage 1973/74. 3 tubes 531, gas pipe fork.
    No signs of PX or PS ANYWHERE.
    Give a man a fish and feed him for a day.
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    Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
    It's kinda painful to look at some of these period catalogue pics with weird looking saddle and seatpost setups (too far forward and kinda low for the frame size in this case) You have a feeling that the person who set up the bike for the photograph might not ride that much or at al....maybe it's the photographer's assistant who was too small for the bike??l..... The crank position for the pic could be better too...but at least they took it from the drive side!
    Chombi
    Lovely, isn't it !?
    I especially like that biiig pie plate (aka "dork disc") on the PX-10 - verry funny, indeed ...
    Give a man a fish and feed him for a day.
    Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.
    Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
    Desmond Tutu

  15. #15
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neurocop View Post
    The OP's bike seems to have "ornate" scalloped (not plain) Nervex lugs, and these were phased out by Peugeot around 1974, so I'd have to say the bike is not a "late" 70's bike. It's definitely '74 or earlier. I'm going by the posted pics...

    Re the fork crown, the Reynolds forks on PX-10's could have "fancy" or "plain" crowns, but in either case the forks crowns from the 70's typically had a chromed fillet that the OP's bike lacks (it indeed any fillet), which makes me question the PX-10 lineage..
    I'm nto sure what lugs are the OP's PX but they're not what one would expect of on PX's of the vintage your talking about. I've seen run of them mill PA10 style crowns on PX10's. I' dont how you could possibly say thats a '74 or earlier model.

    Here's a '76 with the same lugs:.
    .

    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    I'm nto sure what lugs are the OP's PX but they're not what one would expect of on PX's of the vintage your talking about. I've seen run of them mill PA10 style crowns on PX10's. I' dont how you could possibly say thats a '74 or earlier model.

    Here's a '76 with the same lugs:.
    .

    Yeah, those are the ornate Nervex lugs in your pic. Notice also the "non-ornate" Reynolds fork crown...which has the expected chrome fillet bar that I was referring to. The OP's fork crown is totally different, as I mentioned.

    If your picture is of a '76 Peug, I stand corrected that the ornate lugs phased out after 1974, but I stand by everything else I said.

  17. #17
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neurocop View Post
    Yeah, those are the ornate Nervex lugs in your pic. Notice also the "non-ornate" Reynolds fork crown...which has the expected chrome fillet bar that I was referring to. The OP's fork crown is totally different, as I mentioned.

    If your picture is of a '76 Peug, I stand corrected that the ornate lugs phased out after 1974, but I stand by everything else I said.
    The lugs pictured in post #15 are NOT Nervex.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    The lugs pictured in post #15 are NOT Nervex.
    They are not Nervex Pro lugs, but I thought they were from the Nervex Legere series (of which there were dozens of models, most of which had that long "spike." If not Nervex, who made them. They are quite nice.

  19. #19
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    the bike is a Peugeot PR 10L. I have an identical one since new in 1975.. ridden less than 100 miles here in the UK.

  20. #20
    billy chuck eschlwc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VintageR View Post
    …Approx. vintage 1973/74...
    the cycles peugeot page says '77-'78, right?




  21. #21
    billy chuck eschlwc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris770099 View Post
    the bike is a Peugeot PR 10L. I have an identical one since new in 1975.. ridden less than 100 miles here in the UK.
    that makes sense when looking at that front derailleur if original. there's a gap in the downtube decal dating on the cycles peugeot page which might put it at '76ish.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Shp4man's Avatar
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    It has the same decal set as my 1977 PRN10E, but the lugs are different and they only offered silver paint for that model according to what I've read. So '76 sounds about right. A European model maybe?
    "Life is like a ten speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use." -Charles M. Schulz

  23. #23
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    You need top tube cable clamps. It originally had three Simplex clamps.

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