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Thread: Yikes!!!

  1. #1
    Ellensburg, WA scozim's Avatar
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    Yikes!!!

    Working on my dad's Spectrum this morning and was swapping some pedals out. I noticed an irregularity on the left side crank arm at the bolt hole and started investigating a little further. His slow speed crash last week due to inattention may have been a good thing - this looks like it could be seriously catastrophic. Cracks on both sides all the way through. Who knows how long they've been there.

    Too bad - these are really cool Sampson lightweight cranks from the mid to late 90's. Guess I'll be on the look out for a lightweight 130bcd square taper crankset




    1984 Gitane Sprint; 1984 Gitane Tour de France;1982 Trek 610; 1980's Univega Supra Sport; 1975 Teledyne Titan;1984 Peugeot PSV10N; 1968 Peugeot PL8; ;1982 Nishiki Marina 12; 1977 Peugeot PX-10; 1987 Trek 800 Antelope (touring/commuting set up); 1981 Trek 510; 1993 or 1994 Scott Comp Racing mtb; 1996 Klein Pulse II mtb; 1980's Peugeot Limestone hybrid;

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  2. #2
    )) <> (( illwafer's Avatar
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    probably a design flaw if they are on both sides. i'd return them

  3. #3
    Senior Member Roger M's Avatar
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    Ouch...

    I wouldn't toss them out though, before having a competent welder check them out. That's too bad, they are real nice looking parts.

    If you're looking for aftermarket cranks, these Topline units are not too hard to find(ebay,CL). I am happy with the quality, and they are nice looking pieces.




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    Senior Member jr59's Avatar
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    I would at least look at trying to fix the Sampson cranks first!

    Those Toplines sure do look good!
    Gravity hates us all, but it hates me more than thin people!

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    Ellensburg, WA scozim's Avatar
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    I've emailed Sampson - doubt they have any hanging around in their warehouse - but you never know. A couple of years ago they still had cleats for their old Stratics pedals.

    Can aluminum be repaired safely? If I do replace I'll definitely keep them for the display case as they are pretty cool.

    Roger - any idea on the weight of the Toplines? Not that it matters much for me but my dad built this bike as a weight weenie.
    1984 Gitane Sprint; 1984 Gitane Tour de France;1982 Trek 610; 1980's Univega Supra Sport; 1975 Teledyne Titan;1984 Peugeot PSV10N; 1968 Peugeot PL8; ;1982 Nishiki Marina 12; 1977 Peugeot PX-10; 1987 Trek 800 Antelope (touring/commuting set up); 1981 Trek 510; 1993 or 1994 Scott Comp Racing mtb; 1996 Klein Pulse II mtb; 1980's Peugeot Limestone hybrid;

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    Senior Member Roger M's Avatar
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    I don't have a small scale, so I can't weigh them here. I did some searching on the internet, and found more than one source that claim 369grams for 172.5 road cranks(w/o BB)

    For comparison, these 6500 series Shimano cranks are claimed to be 527grams

    Last edited by Roger M; 10-25-11 at 10:02 AM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member jr59's Avatar
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    I have had billet aluminum repaired on my motorcycle before, the piece came out great, but it didn't take the stress of a crank.
    Gravity hates us all, but it hates me more than thin people!

  8. #8
    Ellensburg, WA scozim's Avatar
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    Received a response from Sampson in less than 30 minutes today. Would be awesome if they had an old set laying around.

    "We are aware of the issue, and it is why all the Sampson cranks were sold with precise mounting instructions ---and all cranks sold after 1995 also had a full warranty registration that required the installer to sign the form and fill in the torque setting-- While it is standard now for cranks to have a torque setting-in the 1990's most people ignored it, and the result would be a fracture as you describe, which was the result of simply pushing the cranks too hard onto the taper of the bb-

    Can you provide me any information as to when you purchased the cranks, and who installed these and on what type of bb? And DO NOT RIDE these cranks, they are subject to fail at anytime per your description. "

    1984 Gitane Sprint; 1984 Gitane Tour de France;1982 Trek 610; 1980's Univega Supra Sport; 1975 Teledyne Titan;1984 Peugeot PSV10N; 1968 Peugeot PL8; ;1982 Nishiki Marina 12; 1977 Peugeot PX-10; 1987 Trek 800 Antelope (touring/commuting set up); 1981 Trek 510; 1993 or 1994 Scott Comp Racing mtb; 1996 Klein Pulse II mtb; 1980's Peugeot Limestone hybrid;

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    Senior Member jr59's Avatar
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    Well, it is your dad's bike... lol!

    Did you ask if they had replacement cranks?

    Good luck!
    Gravity hates us all, but it hates me more than thin people!

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    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    I doubt if that crankset can be welded back correctly as how will you do a full penetration weld on it. You'll most likely end up with a weld near the surface and still a crack inside the arm which is not 100% good. You almost have to gouge out material close to the full depth of the crack and then fill it with weld, then grind/polish it back to spec, then you still have to grind out, clean out and re-tap the extractor threads for both. Lots of (expensive/labor intensive) work and who knows if you might end up overheating the part and end up with something weaker.
    I think the crankset's toast, time to look for another one....
    BTW, did you check if by any chance the cranks were torqued down on the spindle too far/much which might have contributed to the cracking??

    Chombi
    Last edited by Chombi; 10-25-11 at 12:37 PM.

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    Senior Member bobbycorno's Avatar
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    Ah, the joys of CNC cranks...

    SP
    Bend, OR

  12. #12
    car guy, recovering aixaix's Avatar
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    Definitely not worth welding. If you managed to get enough penetration, you'd have to remachine the mounting hole. Way too much work!
    Michael Shiffer
    EuroMeccanicany.com

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    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbycorno View Post
    Ah, the joys of CNC cranks...

    SP
    Bend, OR
    Is that a hint that CNC = more chances of stress risers?
    I imagine if the CNC machining from billet (in contrast to casting/forging) might produce more sharp angles on a crank design, you might have a good point there.

    Chombi

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    SNARKY MEMBER CardiacKid's Avatar
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    I love how the email admits to the design defect and then blames the installer. Typical American Corporate response.

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    Ellensburg, WA scozim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
    BTW, did you check if by any chance the cranks were torqued down on the spindle too far/much which might have contributed to the cracking??

    Chombi
    Got a follow up email from Eric Sampson - definitely appears to be a torque issue which is too bad. He looked at the photos and confirmed that. I'd love to find another set in 170mm or 172.5 but am doubtful that will happen. I'll also keep an eye out for a Topline. Talked to my dad earlier and he'll definitely want to go with a lighter weight crankset.

    On a side note - I had to tighten the bolt on the left arm the other day as it was creaking but don't think I tightened too far. I could have - it's hard to say. I didn't touch the right side arm so I know I didn't cause that problem.
    1984 Gitane Sprint; 1984 Gitane Tour de France;1982 Trek 610; 1980's Univega Supra Sport; 1975 Teledyne Titan;1984 Peugeot PSV10N; 1968 Peugeot PL8; ;1982 Nishiki Marina 12; 1977 Peugeot PX-10; 1987 Trek 800 Antelope (touring/commuting set up); 1981 Trek 510; 1993 or 1994 Scott Comp Racing mtb; 1996 Klein Pulse II mtb; 1980's Peugeot Limestone hybrid;

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    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
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    Yes, folks, parts do sometimes fail. I seem to be having a bad year in that regard. Luckily only the parts broke.

  17. #17
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    There are a wide varietry of aluminum alloys, not all of them can safely be repaired back to full strength by welding.

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    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
    Definitely not worth welding. If you managed to get enough penetration, you'd have to remachine the mounting hole. Way too much work!
    Ditto this. Looks like the Campy bolts held up well, though

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    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
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    Broken stem, discovered whilst tearing down a new bike today.
    - And this is not even the "death stem" !

    - Auchen

  20. #20
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
    Broken stem, discovered whilst tearing down a new bike today.
    - And this is not even the "death stem" !

    I have the same stem. Mine was cracked up from the base where the wedge would go.

  21. #21
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
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    Cast aluminum in a high stress application is not very amenable to repairing, weld or otherwise. Forged/billet, possibly, but without a full post-heat treating process, the original strength will not be regained, albiet that the resultant strength may be adequate for a reasonably long second life.
    I would attribute the Sampson crank failures to a flawed marketing & delivery strategy. I.e., given the sensitivity of the design to installation torque, they erred when selling in a manner that permitted installation by lay end customers. They probably should have required installation by authorized dealers only. Probably hard to control this, especially after initial installation, so really they were out in left field putting out a product with such a narrow design margin.
    Geoff
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Captain Blight's Avatar
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    I've got a couple of those Philippe stems; I drilled a small hole at the end of the relief cut to keep any cracks from starting. I really, really hope nothing does start.
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  23. #23
    )) <> (( illwafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacKid View Post
    I love how the email admits to the design defect and then blames the installer. Typical American Corporate response.
    +1. what a joke. this isn't a carbon crank. we shouldn't need a torque wrench.

  24. #24
    Ellensburg, WA scozim's Avatar
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    Have to say C&V on Bike Forums is absolutely the best. I was contacted by another member today who has a 170mm Sampson crankset like the one on the bike. My dad is definitely interested so the deal will be done. I also have the torque specifications from Sampson. My dad was really impressed that I could get some resolution this quickly (gotta admit so was I). Just another reason I spend 95% of my time here at C&V.
    1984 Gitane Sprint; 1984 Gitane Tour de France;1982 Trek 610; 1980's Univega Supra Sport; 1975 Teledyne Titan;1984 Peugeot PSV10N; 1968 Peugeot PL8; ;1982 Nishiki Marina 12; 1977 Peugeot PX-10; 1987 Trek 800 Antelope (touring/commuting set up); 1981 Trek 510; 1993 or 1994 Scott Comp Racing mtb; 1996 Klein Pulse II mtb; 1980's Peugeot Limestone hybrid;

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    Quote Originally Posted by scozim View Post
    Working on my dad's Spectrum this morning and was swapping some pedals out. I noticed an irregularity on the left side crank arm at the bolt hole and started investigating a little further. His slow speed crash last week due to inattention may have been a good thing - this looks like it could be seriously catastrophic. Cracks on both sides all the way through. Who knows how long they've been there.

    Too bad - these are really cool Sampson lightweight cranks from the mid to late 90's. Guess I'll be on the look out for a lightweight 130bcd square taper crankset




    About 102% of those (completely) CNC'ed cranks from the USA from that time period broke. Bad, bad way to make cranks. The only ones that aren't broken by now are NOS in a box. Run very far away from any of those types cranks, imo.

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