Epic vintage touring bikes (Cannondale defined BOBish?)
11-16-11, 03:12 AM
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Bikes: '92 22" Cannondale M2000, '92 Cannondale R1000 Tandem, another modern Canndondale tandem, Two Holy Grail '86 Cannondale ST800s 27" (68.5cm) Touring bike w/Superbe Pro components and Phil Wood hubs. A bunch of other 27" ST frames & bikes.
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Epic vintage touring bikes (Cannondale defined BOBish?)
I stumble onto epic amazing bikes a lot. More than my fair share actually, probably due to living in cycling obsessed places (Madison, Boulder, etc.). However, it isn't often that I ever stumble across something I can actually enjoy. I ride between a 68cm and a 70cm bike, and while 27" (~68cm) steel bikes are ubiquitous from Raleigh, Schwinn, Panasonic, Fuji, etc. I never ever find anything that actually works for me. Large triangles and the tubing used for flexy vintage lightweights (even the best stuff) does not build good bikes. It just doesn't. Maybe, you'd have to be 6'6" and use 205mm custom cranks to realize this, but I'm just gonna ask that you trust me on this one.
Anyway, my grail finds are vintage Cannondale ST bikes, which were actually built in a 27" (68.5cm) size. Just epic bikes. Think a randonneur or Rivendell. While not the series 3.0 frames, the ST series while "unoptimized" (if that's a word) are still magical. Even with front and rear racks, fenders, large tires, and triple bottle cages they still climb like a mountain goat, sprint like a jack rabbit, and are phenomenally light, and freakin' incredibly strong. The lugged steel Tange touring forks are just perfect for these aluminum frames, and I don't know why they just are.
The '86 & '87 ST800 spec was just mind blowing. As I've posted elsewhere just a Grant wetdream:
Honey Brooks (or Honey Ideal) saddles with copper rivets
Suntour Superbe Pro triple front derailleur
Suntour Superbe Pro rear derailleur w/GT Long cage (only place this exists)
Suntour Supere Pro seatpost ('87 had American Classic)
Suntour Superbe Pro pedals w/clips and Cannondale leather straps to match saddle
Suntour Superbe Pro indexing downtube shifters (transformed by Kelly Take-Offs)
Dia-Compe NGC 982 cantilevers actually in black (rare as hen's teeth)
Nitto Technomic stem (1" quill)
Nitto Randonneur bars
Cinelli honey leather bar tape to match saddle/straps
Stronglight Delta 1" threaded/quill headset
Sansin hubs w/Wolber 58 Super Champions
Sugino AT crankset 28/44/48 half-step
Sugino BB
Light touring tires w/Kevlar belt (this is in '86/'87 keep in mind)
Fenders spec'd and frame fits wide tires
Front and Rear Racks
Triple Water bottle cages
The Anthracite metallic paint is just epically beautiful with the tan/gold C'dale badging. You actually have to see one of these to appreciate 'em as photos don't do them justice. C'Dale actually painted the front and rear racks AND the three water bottle cages to match in Anthracite. Just jaw droppingly hauntingly beautiful.
You have to actually see the bike to appreciate it, just the way the whole comes together just so.
Keep in mind these Cannondale ST bikes were in full production in 1983. That's a full year before Grant would even begin working at Bridgestone. The '86 ST800 is nonetheless a Grant Peterson wet dream, in terms of the build. It is hard for many to believe that the Bridgestone/BOBish/Rivendell descends from a Cannondale vision, but its true. Most people have never looked through the vintage Cannondale catalogs, and Grant has never publicly acknowledged the effect the Cannondale ST series had on his line of thinking. Don't believe everything you read. Yep, that's where the country bike ethos started, with Cannondale. Only most people don't really know that Cannondale was a tent, backpack, sleeping bag, and gear company. They only started making bike touring equipment and panniers, and wanted something to hang their wares from. They had some very innovative internal/external frame backpacks that used an hourglass aluminum frame and the rest is history. Production Cannondales were "rocket bikes" compared to steel. Cannondale changed the paradigm and cycling has NEVER been the same since. The last steel bike to win the tour would come only 11 years after the introduction of the Cannondale ST bikes to market in '83. Steel has largely been irrelevant as a performance frame material since.
Cannondale started in '73 as a company that made gear for Backpacking and "BicyclePacking." Some of the early vintage imagry of the bicycle tourists using their Cannondale Bikepack Touring system of handlebar, saddle, front and rear panniers, look uncomfortably like the imagery that you'll find today on the Rivendell website that crafts Grant's brand. You've got to actually look through these early catalogs and advertising while having the Riv site up to actually appreciate how similar these companies were/are.
Link to 1973 Cannondale Backpacking and BikePacking catalog:
https://www.vintagecannondale.com/year/1973/1973.pdf
Keep in mind what Grant espouses with his S24o (sub twenty-four lb/Overnight) philosophy while perusing the early C'dale material. Almost a little creepy considering the character Grant has crafted for himself as going against the grain and as an iconoclast. In reading the 1973 Cannodale catalog it just seems creepy the allusions to a society that has become too complicated, and needing to return to something simpler. Reading vintage Cannondale catalogs is like reading Grant before he knew he was going to borrow Cannondale's clothing.
Don't believe it? Compare what Grant's vision was for Bridgestone in '85 and '86 to what Cannondale's vistion for cycling was was starting from '73 to when they started producing bicycles in '83. Cannondale bicycles began with the vision of a randonneur bike. Look at the specs of the very first '83 build. Follow the evolution, always an all-purpose fits fenders/racks sport touring do everything bike through '84 and '85. See how absolutely epic the build becomes for the ST800 in '86 & '87:
https://www.vintagecannondale.com/catalog.html
Now compare that to what Grant envisions in '85 and '86. I'm calling it. Rivendell today, all the Grant beliefs/preferences are/were what Cannondale was in '86 with a single exception: Steel frames handcrafted in Japan instead of aluminum handcrafted frames in Pennsylvania. You can't begin to compare the efficiency, stiffness, ability to climb, frame strength and ability to load it down for touring with the aluminum frames with steel. Well I guess you can if you're just trying to sell heavy, poorly climbing, poorly accelerating steel bikes using Cannondale's original marketing language as your own.
However, everything that a Bobish bike "is" and everything that a Rivendell "is" actually was a production Cannondale before it was ever adopted and brought to market by Grant.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1985/index.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1986/index.html
This will turn the stomachs of some of the card carrying members of the BOBish cult, and those with heavy boat anchor "art bikes." However, I'm just sharing with you some historical factual information from which to cut through the Rivendell rhetoric and dogmatic marketing. Marketing and language that Cannondale used first, and a style that Grant borrowed from the early Cannondale catalogs.
It saddens me that these absolutely epic vintage Cannondale ST touring bikes aren't being treated with the reverence that they deserve. Ignore all opinions to the contrary. There are many cyclists out there with an agenda regarding Cannondale and Klein. Aging cyclists that enjoy the comfort of their steel bikes, but have never ridden aluminum yet alone carbon or titanium. How do the vintage Cannondale ST bikes compare to even modern bikes? They are still just as epic. Some of the strongest frames ever made for touring bikes. A Rivendell will pop lugs with the weight you can load a Cannondale down with. They climb like a mountain goat. They'll out accelerate vintage steel lightweight racing bikes, but they are relaxed geometry Sport Touring bikes. 1" quill stems, nicely spec'd, fits wide tires & fenders, and they invented the country bike ethos. Yet every day hundreds of cyclists search out for Bridgestone and Rivs, Olmos, Raleighs, and the like on the secondary market but never think to actually look for the "better" bike, the Cannondale ST. That's my opinion, my thread, and my thought.
Please share your opinions, thoughts (even if they are regurgitated beliefs packaged and re-packaged for you from the Riv and BOBish clan) and clamor, if you feel the need against these bikes, as they are definitely not steel, and therefore stand against all that you believe in.
However, these handcrafted aluminum bicycles take more technical skill to craft than all but a very handful of the very best bicycle builders in the world possess. The skill level required to build a lugged steel bike compared to that required to weld thin wall oversize aluminum can not be reasonably compared. It has taken light year advances in welding technology to allow others to catch up to what the master aluminum welders at Cannodnale were doing back in the day. Aluminum is much more difficult to fabricate with than steel. Anyone can take a frame building class and build their own steel frame in a week with zero knowledge, experience or frame building background. Try that with aluminum! C'dale struggled because a skilled aluminum master welder could always find employment in shipbuilding, defense contracting, etc. Anyone can learn to braze a lugged bike in a weekend. Where is that skill going to get you a high paying job? These days advances with the feeding systems, "hotstart" controls, and computer controlled current to prevent end of weld cratering largely eliminate many of the issues that required Cannondale to employ experienced and educated aluminum welders. That technology didn't exist, and back then these bikes were built by master craftsmen, not just a guy that knew how to braze a steel lug.
So give 'em some respect. Let's find a way that you can retain the love affair that of the Italian grand-master holding a torch in one hand and a cappuccino in the other, and I'm not challenging any of the fundamental beliefs of the BOBish cult (save one). However, let's give credit where its due, and the reality is that vintage Cannondale Touring bikes were relevant and significant for the vision that existed from '73, to the introduction of the paradigm changing bike in '83, but also for what they were in production.
An '86 Cannondale ST800 is an epic bike. It is truly a grail find. It has components and kit on it that Grant would sell you today, if only he could, but he can't so he doesn't and sells cheap crap instead. Instead he tries to convince you that the Dia-Compe Silver shifter is somehow special in its own right. Trust me, Grant was right the first time when he explained that Japanese (not modern Taiwanese which he mostly sells now) components in the mid-80s were the high water mark for engineering, fit, precision, and finish. The hand polishing and obsession with quality are just phenomenal on stuff from ST era.
Go buy a Rivendell, and buy the best Riv Grant can sell you today. Build it up with modern dream components. It won't be half the bike that the C'dale vintage ST800 was. It will be a boat anchor, it will climb like a dog, it will make you hate bikepacking. It won't put the smile on your face that the C'dale ST800 does. That's before you stop riding it with a big stupid grin to appreciate the Suntour Superbe Pro components, Brooks saddle, Nitto handlebars and stem, the legendary Sugino AT touring crank. These bikes were just simply incredible.
There is enough rhetoric out there to the contrary. Just trying to balance the radical steel cult with some truth and historical balance. I'm just sayin'...
and now you know. You'll never look at Rivendell the same again, and you'll have a smile on your face every time you see a Riv/BOB clone with their shellac'd tape etc. Remind 'em that the "original" Cannondale their bike imitates had italian Cinelli leather tape matching the Brooks Saddle and Cannondale leather straps that fed through the Suntour Superbe Pro pedals, then ride away with a obnoxious smirk. They can go post pictures of their Riv on instagram or something. You'll be having too much fun actually RIDING your ST 800.
Anyway, my grail finds are vintage Cannondale ST bikes, which were actually built in a 27" (68.5cm) size. Just epic bikes. Think a randonneur or Rivendell. While not the series 3.0 frames, the ST series while "unoptimized" (if that's a word) are still magical. Even with front and rear racks, fenders, large tires, and triple bottle cages they still climb like a mountain goat, sprint like a jack rabbit, and are phenomenally light, and freakin' incredibly strong. The lugged steel Tange touring forks are just perfect for these aluminum frames, and I don't know why they just are.
The '86 & '87 ST800 spec was just mind blowing. As I've posted elsewhere just a Grant wetdream:
Honey Brooks (or Honey Ideal) saddles with copper rivets
Suntour Superbe Pro triple front derailleur
Suntour Superbe Pro rear derailleur w/GT Long cage (only place this exists)
Suntour Supere Pro seatpost ('87 had American Classic)
Suntour Superbe Pro pedals w/clips and Cannondale leather straps to match saddle
Suntour Superbe Pro indexing downtube shifters (transformed by Kelly Take-Offs)
Dia-Compe NGC 982 cantilevers actually in black (rare as hen's teeth)
Nitto Technomic stem (1" quill)
Nitto Randonneur bars
Cinelli honey leather bar tape to match saddle/straps
Stronglight Delta 1" threaded/quill headset
Sansin hubs w/Wolber 58 Super Champions
Sugino AT crankset 28/44/48 half-step
Sugino BB
Light touring tires w/Kevlar belt (this is in '86/'87 keep in mind)
Fenders spec'd and frame fits wide tires
Front and Rear Racks
Triple Water bottle cages
The Anthracite metallic paint is just epically beautiful with the tan/gold C'dale badging. You actually have to see one of these to appreciate 'em as photos don't do them justice. C'Dale actually painted the front and rear racks AND the three water bottle cages to match in Anthracite. Just jaw droppingly hauntingly beautiful.
You have to actually see the bike to appreciate it, just the way the whole comes together just so.
Keep in mind these Cannondale ST bikes were in full production in 1983. That's a full year before Grant would even begin working at Bridgestone. The '86 ST800 is nonetheless a Grant Peterson wet dream, in terms of the build. It is hard for many to believe that the Bridgestone/BOBish/Rivendell descends from a Cannondale vision, but its true. Most people have never looked through the vintage Cannondale catalogs, and Grant has never publicly acknowledged the effect the Cannondale ST series had on his line of thinking. Don't believe everything you read. Yep, that's where the country bike ethos started, with Cannondale. Only most people don't really know that Cannondale was a tent, backpack, sleeping bag, and gear company. They only started making bike touring equipment and panniers, and wanted something to hang their wares from. They had some very innovative internal/external frame backpacks that used an hourglass aluminum frame and the rest is history. Production Cannondales were "rocket bikes" compared to steel. Cannondale changed the paradigm and cycling has NEVER been the same since. The last steel bike to win the tour would come only 11 years after the introduction of the Cannondale ST bikes to market in '83. Steel has largely been irrelevant as a performance frame material since.
Cannondale started in '73 as a company that made gear for Backpacking and "BicyclePacking." Some of the early vintage imagry of the bicycle tourists using their Cannondale Bikepack Touring system of handlebar, saddle, front and rear panniers, look uncomfortably like the imagery that you'll find today on the Rivendell website that crafts Grant's brand. You've got to actually look through these early catalogs and advertising while having the Riv site up to actually appreciate how similar these companies were/are.
Link to 1973 Cannondale Backpacking and BikePacking catalog:
https://www.vintagecannondale.com/year/1973/1973.pdf
Keep in mind what Grant espouses with his S24o (sub twenty-four lb/Overnight) philosophy while perusing the early C'dale material. Almost a little creepy considering the character Grant has crafted for himself as going against the grain and as an iconoclast. In reading the 1973 Cannodale catalog it just seems creepy the allusions to a society that has become too complicated, and needing to return to something simpler. Reading vintage Cannondale catalogs is like reading Grant before he knew he was going to borrow Cannondale's clothing.
Don't believe it? Compare what Grant's vision was for Bridgestone in '85 and '86 to what Cannondale's vistion for cycling was was starting from '73 to when they started producing bicycles in '83. Cannondale bicycles began with the vision of a randonneur bike. Look at the specs of the very first '83 build. Follow the evolution, always an all-purpose fits fenders/racks sport touring do everything bike through '84 and '85. See how absolutely epic the build becomes for the ST800 in '86 & '87:
https://www.vintagecannondale.com/catalog.html
Now compare that to what Grant envisions in '85 and '86. I'm calling it. Rivendell today, all the Grant beliefs/preferences are/were what Cannondale was in '86 with a single exception: Steel frames handcrafted in Japan instead of aluminum handcrafted frames in Pennsylvania. You can't begin to compare the efficiency, stiffness, ability to climb, frame strength and ability to load it down for touring with the aluminum frames with steel. Well I guess you can if you're just trying to sell heavy, poorly climbing, poorly accelerating steel bikes using Cannondale's original marketing language as your own.
However, everything that a Bobish bike "is" and everything that a Rivendell "is" actually was a production Cannondale before it was ever adopted and brought to market by Grant.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1985/index.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1986/index.html
This will turn the stomachs of some of the card carrying members of the BOBish cult, and those with heavy boat anchor "art bikes." However, I'm just sharing with you some historical factual information from which to cut through the Rivendell rhetoric and dogmatic marketing. Marketing and language that Cannondale used first, and a style that Grant borrowed from the early Cannondale catalogs.
It saddens me that these absolutely epic vintage Cannondale ST touring bikes aren't being treated with the reverence that they deserve. Ignore all opinions to the contrary. There are many cyclists out there with an agenda regarding Cannondale and Klein. Aging cyclists that enjoy the comfort of their steel bikes, but have never ridden aluminum yet alone carbon or titanium. How do the vintage Cannondale ST bikes compare to even modern bikes? They are still just as epic. Some of the strongest frames ever made for touring bikes. A Rivendell will pop lugs with the weight you can load a Cannondale down with. They climb like a mountain goat. They'll out accelerate vintage steel lightweight racing bikes, but they are relaxed geometry Sport Touring bikes. 1" quill stems, nicely spec'd, fits wide tires & fenders, and they invented the country bike ethos. Yet every day hundreds of cyclists search out for Bridgestone and Rivs, Olmos, Raleighs, and the like on the secondary market but never think to actually look for the "better" bike, the Cannondale ST. That's my opinion, my thread, and my thought.
Please share your opinions, thoughts (even if they are regurgitated beliefs packaged and re-packaged for you from the Riv and BOBish clan) and clamor, if you feel the need against these bikes, as they are definitely not steel, and therefore stand against all that you believe in.
However, these handcrafted aluminum bicycles take more technical skill to craft than all but a very handful of the very best bicycle builders in the world possess. The skill level required to build a lugged steel bike compared to that required to weld thin wall oversize aluminum can not be reasonably compared. It has taken light year advances in welding technology to allow others to catch up to what the master aluminum welders at Cannodnale were doing back in the day. Aluminum is much more difficult to fabricate with than steel. Anyone can take a frame building class and build their own steel frame in a week with zero knowledge, experience or frame building background. Try that with aluminum! C'dale struggled because a skilled aluminum master welder could always find employment in shipbuilding, defense contracting, etc. Anyone can learn to braze a lugged bike in a weekend. Where is that skill going to get you a high paying job? These days advances with the feeding systems, "hotstart" controls, and computer controlled current to prevent end of weld cratering largely eliminate many of the issues that required Cannondale to employ experienced and educated aluminum welders. That technology didn't exist, and back then these bikes were built by master craftsmen, not just a guy that knew how to braze a steel lug.
So give 'em some respect. Let's find a way that you can retain the love affair that of the Italian grand-master holding a torch in one hand and a cappuccino in the other, and I'm not challenging any of the fundamental beliefs of the BOBish cult (save one). However, let's give credit where its due, and the reality is that vintage Cannondale Touring bikes were relevant and significant for the vision that existed from '73, to the introduction of the paradigm changing bike in '83, but also for what they were in production.
An '86 Cannondale ST800 is an epic bike. It is truly a grail find. It has components and kit on it that Grant would sell you today, if only he could, but he can't so he doesn't and sells cheap crap instead. Instead he tries to convince you that the Dia-Compe Silver shifter is somehow special in its own right. Trust me, Grant was right the first time when he explained that Japanese (not modern Taiwanese which he mostly sells now) components in the mid-80s were the high water mark for engineering, fit, precision, and finish. The hand polishing and obsession with quality are just phenomenal on stuff from ST era.
Go buy a Rivendell, and buy the best Riv Grant can sell you today. Build it up with modern dream components. It won't be half the bike that the C'dale vintage ST800 was. It will be a boat anchor, it will climb like a dog, it will make you hate bikepacking. It won't put the smile on your face that the C'dale ST800 does. That's before you stop riding it with a big stupid grin to appreciate the Suntour Superbe Pro components, Brooks saddle, Nitto handlebars and stem, the legendary Sugino AT touring crank. These bikes were just simply incredible.
There is enough rhetoric out there to the contrary. Just trying to balance the radical steel cult with some truth and historical balance. I'm just sayin'...
and now you know. You'll never look at Rivendell the same again, and you'll have a smile on your face every time you see a Riv/BOB clone with their shellac'd tape etc. Remind 'em that the "original" Cannondale their bike imitates had italian Cinelli leather tape matching the Brooks Saddle and Cannondale leather straps that fed through the Suntour Superbe Pro pedals, then ride away with a obnoxious smirk. They can go post pictures of their Riv on instagram or something. You'll be having too much fun actually RIDING your ST 800.
Last edited by mtnbke; 08-11-15 at 04:55 AM.
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11-16-11, 03:30 AM
#2
cowboy, steel horse, etc
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You know there won't be any ST's left for you if you keep hyping them. People will be swarming your CL for them. 
11-16-11, 03:35 AM
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Posts: 1,511
Bikes: '92 22" Cannondale M2000, '92 Cannondale R1000 Tandem, another modern Canndondale tandem, Two Holy Grail '86 Cannondale ST800s 27" (68.5cm) Touring bike w/Superbe Pro components and Phil Wood hubs. A bunch of other 27" ST frames & bikes.
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I've been lucky enough to fall into three epic vintage Cannondale ST bicycles now. Actually, two bikes and one frame/fork, and two complete '86 ST800s in my size.
In a blasphemous manner I removed the Superbe Pro pedals and gorgeous Cannondale branded leather straps/clips. I replaced them with Bebop pedals Gasp! Which I use one every bike I own (road/mountain/tandem). I also removed the Brooks as it made my willy go numb. Beatiful saddle. I was astounded for what the pedals and saddle were able to fetch on eBay. I use Selle Anatomica saddles instead (now). The Brooks and Superbe Pro pedals almost paid for the whole first ST800. Mine was an especially amazing find in that the beautiful Sansin 36h sealed bearing hubs had been replaced with, I kid you not, Phil Wood 40h touring hubs (rear was a ethos correct freewheel hub not cassette hub). I actually bought some Kore cantilevers considering how many hundreds people would pay for the black Dia-Compe NGC 982s. However, I haven't been able to force myself to remove 'em yet. They are too amazing.
My bike had seen the Superbe Pro downtube shifters replaced with Suntour Accushift Bar-cons. I sourced some Superbe Pro downtube shifters again, mounted 'em on Kelly-Take offs and swapped the Dia-Compe levers for Superbe Pro levers. What else? Well I removed the really nice Sugino 48/44/28 AT crank and buttery smooth Suntour BB and replaced it with a Phil Wood BB and Zinn custom 205mm triple crank with TA Spécialités 48/38 rings and a Middleburn 24 bailout. I'm an idiot (which most of you already deduced from my OP). I can't even claim I didn't understand the ratio advantage the 205mm cranks would give me, even though I spent a lot of time with the Sheldon "gain ratio" calculators that take fully into account crank length. However, I found the TA rings and Middleburn ring for next to nothing and I live in Colorado. However, admittedly I can spin it out pretty quickly, albeit unloaded. The Superbe Pro seat post to complete the group is missing, as is the Nitto seat post it would have come with. I have aan American Classic post, and even a titanium American Classic post I picked up for nothing but I've not used those yet. There is some god awful heavy SK Sakae forged aluminum post attached that came with one of my ST800s. What else changed. The Nitto stem was missing on my first one, the second has it. It had been replaced with a Sakae SR "The Tube" stem. I replaced this with a silver Control Tech stem that looks perfect on the bike, actually. I like it better than I like the Nitto. I've got the Nitto from the second ST800 on the first one now, and its coming back off. I removed the Nitto Grand Randonneur bars, which are just too ridiculously narrow for anyone that would proportionately ride a 68cm bike. I replaced 'em with WTB Mountain Road Drop bars which are incomparably wider in the drops (more proportional for my size) and much stiffer. However, these came back off and I tried to run a Nitto alloy mustache handlebar, but it was too narrow. So now I've got the 56cm Nashbar Mustache bar on the bike. I love this handlebar so much I ordered three more for the tandem and other Cannondale ST builds. New SRAM 870 6/7/8 speed chain only because it was at my local Performance, and I didn't want to wait for a Wipperman from Nashbar. I sourced some German made gumwall Continental TopTouring 2000 NOS tires which look incredible on the bike. However, I realized that someone is more a fool than I. Hard to believe, as it is. They rebuilt the wheels using narrow (15mm internal bead width) rims. I blew out $10 worth of new tubes before I realized that the rims were too narrow for wire-bead 27x1 1/4" tires. I couldn't source Mavic Module 4 rims (or even Module 3s, if you have either PM me. I'll take 32h, 36h, 40h, 48h) so I ordered a custom built silver 48h Dyad from Peter White on a Phil Wood hub.
I should be shot, because before I had 100 miles on the bike I backed it into the garage while moving to the new place. I wasn't even driving into the garage just backing up to unload. Spectacularly beautiful bike in the ridiculously rare 27" size. I was panicked that I had destroyed my ST800. The incredible thing is the Cannondale frame is so strong that it actually passed the force through the frame to the fork at the front of the car. Mark Nobilette straightened out the Tange lugged steel fork for me where the steerer had bent. The steel fork took the brunt of it, being the weakest link compared to the strength of the aluminum frame. Rear alignment is no longer dead-on perfect, and I had to put a washer on the non-drive side of the outer locknut. Which makes everything perfect again.
I picked up a red 27" ST400 frame. All ST frames are identical save paint, and whether they take calipers or cantos, and how many water bottle mounts. [Edit: per Ronno there are some subtle changes with rear dropout spacing] This will never be a touring bike, but will be built up as a true road bike, as the ST 400 takes calipers. Some oxidation that has caused paint problems will require a refinish/repaint. Be careful with these thinwall frames. Sandblasting will remove the soft aluminum and you'll literally remove aluminum if you sandblast them in no time flat. You can blast with walnut shells or soda intended for aluminum, or media in a bead/vibrating table, but no sandblasting. The ST400 Came with an XT headset which I just don't get and a Sugino BB which I found interesting considering the ST800 came with a Suntour BB (which I presume Sugino actually made anyway).
Last month I saw an ad for a 27" Cannondale touring bike locally on my Craigslist. Keep in mind that non-steel 68cm and larger frames just do NOT ever appear on the secondary market. I finally was able to scrounge the moolah he was asking for an anguishingly long time later, and I had a real barn find!
It was a white '87 ST400. Everything was absolutely original. It literally couldn't have any miles on it. Even for being 24+ years old.
Nothing epic. Just good ol' functional stuff.
Suntour alpha-3000 indexing group (derailleurs w/downtube shifters).
Maillard 400 hubs with Sun/Mistral M13 rims (not nearly enough spokes)
Sugino 42/52 170mm crank (strangely this clown bike crank has a Shimano 105 left crank arm)
MKS pedals both missing bearing caps
Suntour 14-30 freewheel
Dia-Compe levers/calipers I'm not impressed with at all. Worst braking bike ever ridden, actually.
Strong seatpost
Vetta white saddle
Tange Tioga headset
Tange touring fork w/rack bosses
The Nitto stem seems to be missing as on the first ride I remembered it being a Sakae but didn't double check.
Cinelli white cork tape (makes me think the stem is the original Nitto).
For now I just through a new set of Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/8 (25-630)that Nashbar was blowing out on the bike. They really make the bike look good. I've noticed that my large bikes always look ridiculous with narrow tires. I like big wider tires anyway. They help with my outlier size, and somehow just look more proportional than tires that are 23s. The ST frame will accommodate wide a tire as I'd ever want even with fenders mounted.
What freakin' bicycle designer thinks that you can use downtube shifters on 68.5cm frame. Are you kidding? Definitely in need of some more Kelly Take-Offs if someone has extra sets lying around. I don't know if its just the pads, or whether these vintage Dia-Compe 500N brakeset is just not comparable something modern.
Thinking I'm okay with refinishing the bike as something else, except I'd much prefer the Banana paint scheme (sans "custom '8y Cannondale graphics") to the white/red that I have. However, I might like repainting it in another color scheme to redo it as another year/model. Maybe turn it into a 27" Crest Cannondale?
The Sugino crank (half Shimano) and Sugino BB will come off for either a Da Vinci 200mm triple or a Hi-Sierra/Zinn 200mm triple w/Phil Wood BB. I don't like friction shifting at all, but maybe I just need to "learn"? I do have some beautiful Mavic SSC derailleurs (the "erector" set 801 and 851 SSC ones) that I need to use. That would give me the excuse I need to get the black Mavic/Simplex retrofriction shifters. I also have an extra set of Mavic SSC black anodized white Mavic branded levers. I could use either pink or green A'me hoods on those. Then again I'm not sure I want this to be a Mavic bike. I don't have anything Campy. I'd love a Campy bike, although I hear finding 6/7/8 speed long cage rear derailleurs for Campy are impossible. I guess 8 speed Campy downtube shifters and triple front changers can be had?
I'm just not in love with the Suntour alpha-3000. However, it shifts flawlessly and there is absolutely no reason whatsover that I should even be thinking about swapping everything out the "group." I'll definitely need stronger hubs with a higher drill and more rim. Maybe some Mavics on Mavic wheels, as I don't want to do 48h on this bike (Velocity Dyad only comes in 48 drill). I do like Phil Woods, but I need to use my Mavic hubs. I don't want this bike to get out of control ignoring stuff I always intended to use. 170mm cranks are a joke and exhausting to spin. Never ridden cranks that short since I was a child.
I absolutely love the Nashbar mustache handlebars with the Kelly Take-Offs mounting the downtube shifters behind the levers.
What would you do with the red and white ST bikes? Ride them as is? Repaint it (pretending to be an ST600 maybe, Mavic Neutral Support bike, or Crest Cannondale)? Do you like the white/red including original cable housing? I actually happen to have a red Prolink Gel flow saddle which would have been used if I hadn't switched to Selle Anatomica saddles. The MKS pedals are off as they are missing the aforementioned bearing caps. I need another set of Bebops now for this bike. Plastic platforms on it temporarily (test ride). I'd like another C'dale branded water bottle cage.
Definitely interested in build advice (even if it is "Leave it alone!"). Rides smooth.
What do you think?
In a blasphemous manner I removed the Superbe Pro pedals and gorgeous Cannondale branded leather straps/clips. I replaced them with Bebop pedals Gasp! Which I use one every bike I own (road/mountain/tandem). I also removed the Brooks as it made my willy go numb. Beatiful saddle. I was astounded for what the pedals and saddle were able to fetch on eBay. I use Selle Anatomica saddles instead (now). The Brooks and Superbe Pro pedals almost paid for the whole first ST800. Mine was an especially amazing find in that the beautiful Sansin 36h sealed bearing hubs had been replaced with, I kid you not, Phil Wood 40h touring hubs (rear was a ethos correct freewheel hub not cassette hub). I actually bought some Kore cantilevers considering how many hundreds people would pay for the black Dia-Compe NGC 982s. However, I haven't been able to force myself to remove 'em yet. They are too amazing.
My bike had seen the Superbe Pro downtube shifters replaced with Suntour Accushift Bar-cons. I sourced some Superbe Pro downtube shifters again, mounted 'em on Kelly-Take offs and swapped the Dia-Compe levers for Superbe Pro levers. What else? Well I removed the really nice Sugino 48/44/28 AT crank and buttery smooth Suntour BB and replaced it with a Phil Wood BB and Zinn custom 205mm triple crank with TA Spécialités 48/38 rings and a Middleburn 24 bailout. I'm an idiot (which most of you already deduced from my OP). I can't even claim I didn't understand the ratio advantage the 205mm cranks would give me, even though I spent a lot of time with the Sheldon "gain ratio" calculators that take fully into account crank length. However, I found the TA rings and Middleburn ring for next to nothing and I live in Colorado. However, admittedly I can spin it out pretty quickly, albeit unloaded. The Superbe Pro seat post to complete the group is missing, as is the Nitto seat post it would have come with. I have aan American Classic post, and even a titanium American Classic post I picked up for nothing but I've not used those yet. There is some god awful heavy SK Sakae forged aluminum post attached that came with one of my ST800s. What else changed. The Nitto stem was missing on my first one, the second has it. It had been replaced with a Sakae SR "The Tube" stem. I replaced this with a silver Control Tech stem that looks perfect on the bike, actually. I like it better than I like the Nitto. I've got the Nitto from the second ST800 on the first one now, and its coming back off. I removed the Nitto Grand Randonneur bars, which are just too ridiculously narrow for anyone that would proportionately ride a 68cm bike. I replaced 'em with WTB Mountain Road Drop bars which are incomparably wider in the drops (more proportional for my size) and much stiffer. However, these came back off and I tried to run a Nitto alloy mustache handlebar, but it was too narrow. So now I've got the 56cm Nashbar Mustache bar on the bike. I love this handlebar so much I ordered three more for the tandem and other Cannondale ST builds. New SRAM 870 6/7/8 speed chain only because it was at my local Performance, and I didn't want to wait for a Wipperman from Nashbar. I sourced some German made gumwall Continental TopTouring 2000 NOS tires which look incredible on the bike. However, I realized that someone is more a fool than I. Hard to believe, as it is. They rebuilt the wheels using narrow (15mm internal bead width) rims. I blew out $10 worth of new tubes before I realized that the rims were too narrow for wire-bead 27x1 1/4" tires. I couldn't source Mavic Module 4 rims (or even Module 3s, if you have either PM me. I'll take 32h, 36h, 40h, 48h) so I ordered a custom built silver 48h Dyad from Peter White on a Phil Wood hub.
I should be shot, because before I had 100 miles on the bike I backed it into the garage while moving to the new place. I wasn't even driving into the garage just backing up to unload. Spectacularly beautiful bike in the ridiculously rare 27" size. I was panicked that I had destroyed my ST800. The incredible thing is the Cannondale frame is so strong that it actually passed the force through the frame to the fork at the front of the car. Mark Nobilette straightened out the Tange lugged steel fork for me where the steerer had bent. The steel fork took the brunt of it, being the weakest link compared to the strength of the aluminum frame. Rear alignment is no longer dead-on perfect, and I had to put a washer on the non-drive side of the outer locknut. Which makes everything perfect again.
I picked up a red 27" ST400 frame. All ST frames are identical save paint, and whether they take calipers or cantos, and how many water bottle mounts. [Edit: per Ronno there are some subtle changes with rear dropout spacing] This will never be a touring bike, but will be built up as a true road bike, as the ST 400 takes calipers. Some oxidation that has caused paint problems will require a refinish/repaint. Be careful with these thinwall frames. Sandblasting will remove the soft aluminum and you'll literally remove aluminum if you sandblast them in no time flat. You can blast with walnut shells or soda intended for aluminum, or media in a bead/vibrating table, but no sandblasting. The ST400 Came with an XT headset which I just don't get and a Sugino BB which I found interesting considering the ST800 came with a Suntour BB (which I presume Sugino actually made anyway).
Last month I saw an ad for a 27" Cannondale touring bike locally on my Craigslist. Keep in mind that non-steel 68cm and larger frames just do NOT ever appear on the secondary market. I finally was able to scrounge the moolah he was asking for an anguishingly long time later, and I had a real barn find!
It was a white '87 ST400. Everything was absolutely original. It literally couldn't have any miles on it. Even for being 24+ years old.
Nothing epic. Just good ol' functional stuff.
Suntour alpha-3000 indexing group (derailleurs w/downtube shifters).
Maillard 400 hubs with Sun/Mistral M13 rims (not nearly enough spokes)
Sugino 42/52 170mm crank (strangely this clown bike crank has a Shimano 105 left crank arm)
MKS pedals both missing bearing caps
Suntour 14-30 freewheel
Dia-Compe levers/calipers I'm not impressed with at all. Worst braking bike ever ridden, actually.
Strong seatpost
Vetta white saddle
Tange Tioga headset
Tange touring fork w/rack bosses
The Nitto stem seems to be missing as on the first ride I remembered it being a Sakae but didn't double check.
Cinelli white cork tape (makes me think the stem is the original Nitto).
For now I just through a new set of Panaracer Pasela 27 x 1 1/8 (25-630)that Nashbar was blowing out on the bike. They really make the bike look good. I've noticed that my large bikes always look ridiculous with narrow tires. I like big wider tires anyway. They help with my outlier size, and somehow just look more proportional than tires that are 23s. The ST frame will accommodate wide a tire as I'd ever want even with fenders mounted.
What freakin' bicycle designer thinks that you can use downtube shifters on 68.5cm frame. Are you kidding? Definitely in need of some more Kelly Take-Offs if someone has extra sets lying around. I don't know if its just the pads, or whether these vintage Dia-Compe 500N brakeset is just not comparable something modern.
Thinking I'm okay with refinishing the bike as something else, except I'd much prefer the Banana paint scheme (sans "custom '8y Cannondale graphics") to the white/red that I have. However, I might like repainting it in another color scheme to redo it as another year/model. Maybe turn it into a 27" Crest Cannondale?
The Sugino crank (half Shimano) and Sugino BB will come off for either a Da Vinci 200mm triple or a Hi-Sierra/Zinn 200mm triple w/Phil Wood BB. I don't like friction shifting at all, but maybe I just need to "learn"? I do have some beautiful Mavic SSC derailleurs (the "erector" set 801 and 851 SSC ones) that I need to use. That would give me the excuse I need to get the black Mavic/Simplex retrofriction shifters. I also have an extra set of Mavic SSC black anodized white Mavic branded levers. I could use either pink or green A'me hoods on those. Then again I'm not sure I want this to be a Mavic bike. I don't have anything Campy. I'd love a Campy bike, although I hear finding 6/7/8 speed long cage rear derailleurs for Campy are impossible. I guess 8 speed Campy downtube shifters and triple front changers can be had?
I'm just not in love with the Suntour alpha-3000. However, it shifts flawlessly and there is absolutely no reason whatsover that I should even be thinking about swapping everything out the "group." I'll definitely need stronger hubs with a higher drill and more rim. Maybe some Mavics on Mavic wheels, as I don't want to do 48h on this bike (Velocity Dyad only comes in 48 drill). I do like Phil Woods, but I need to use my Mavic hubs. I don't want this bike to get out of control ignoring stuff I always intended to use. 170mm cranks are a joke and exhausting to spin. Never ridden cranks that short since I was a child.
I absolutely love the Nashbar mustache handlebars with the Kelly Take-Offs mounting the downtube shifters behind the levers.
What would you do with the red and white ST bikes? Ride them as is? Repaint it (pretending to be an ST600 maybe, Mavic Neutral Support bike, or Crest Cannondale)? Do you like the white/red including original cable housing? I actually happen to have a red Prolink Gel flow saddle which would have been used if I hadn't switched to Selle Anatomica saddles. The MKS pedals are off as they are missing the aforementioned bearing caps. I need another set of Bebops now for this bike. Plastic platforms on it temporarily (test ride). I'd like another C'dale branded water bottle cage.
Definitely interested in build advice (even if it is "Leave it alone!"). Rides smooth.
What do you think?
Last edited by mtnbke; 08-11-15 at 05:17 AM.
11-16-11, 03:59 AM
#4
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Ii like that trailer a lot. Anyone has one/seen one in the wild recently?
11-16-11, 04:02 AM
#5
Rustbelt Rider
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That 87 Cannondale is really sweet. It's funny how much it looks like a bike you would see on the forums. You are right about the paint and matching accessories, it's understated but very striking. I sure would like to see one in the flesh. Were steel forks common on Cannondales?
I personally don't care who started the style first, they are both nice. It's my assumption that you can probably look back even farther in time and find other bicycles that carried this torch. To me it's like debating who made the first punk rock album...it's not really important, do you like the music or not?
I personally don't care who started the style first, they are both nice. It's my assumption that you can probably look back even farther in time and find other bicycles that carried this torch. To me it's like debating who made the first punk rock album...it's not really important, do you like the music or not?
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11-16-11, 04:35 AM
#6
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Bikes: '92 22" Cannondale M2000, '92 Cannondale R1000 Tandem, another modern Canndondale tandem, Two Holy Grail '86 Cannondale ST800s 27" (68.5cm) Touring bike w/Superbe Pro components and Phil Wood hubs. A bunch of other 27" ST frames & bikes.
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11-16-11, 07:08 AM
#7
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when i see bikes with only an inch or two of seat post showing, i immediately think that the rider is trying to adapt a frame that's too big for his size. that is an awesome bike, but it just looks 'not right' to me-- without knowing the rider's height, standover, etc i'd think he should look in the future at frames several cm's smaller than this one
11-16-11, 07:16 AM
#8
Senior Member
mtnbke, You might want to PM rccardr or pastorbobnlnh, to name two ST owners for how to modernize/upgrade. I have a 3.0 touring frame I rebuilt earlier this year and it's a slightly different design so I can't provide particulars about the ST.
These bikes do seem to update very well so you have plenty of options. Bar ends are a nice system to move the levers to the handle bars and look appropriate on a touring frame. Tektro dual pivot calipers will improve braking and Harris Cyclery is worth looking at for a wheelset.
Brad
PS While I think it was on a bike that was stolen, I'll see if an old Cannondale water bottle cage is still around.
These bikes do seem to update very well so you have plenty of options. Bar ends are a nice system to move the levers to the handle bars and look appropriate on a touring frame. Tektro dual pivot calipers will improve braking and Harris Cyclery is worth looking at for a wheelset.
Brad
PS While I think it was on a bike that was stolen, I'll see if an old Cannondale water bottle cage is still around.
Last edited by bradtx; 11-16-11 at 07:18 AM. Reason: PS
11-16-11, 07:17 AM
#9
cowboy, steel horse, etc
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Why do you want another bottle cage? If the shifters are too low then those bottles are surely well out of reach
Besides take-offs you could also grab some barends for $50 or so or even stem shifters for really cheap. Most people hate stem shifters but I like 'em just fine on bikes that have had them.
Besides take-offs you could also grab some barends for $50 or so or even stem shifters for really cheap. Most people hate stem shifters but I like 'em just fine on bikes that have had them.
11-16-11, 08:21 AM
#11
cowboy, steel horse, etc
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Yeah, if that's your proper saddle height, I'd go for a smaller frame and a longer stem (if needed to get your reach).
Perhaps you have the bars jacked up like that because you'd like less reach, however. If you want higher bars than a smaller frame will get you, get a Nitto Technomic high rise stem.
Perhaps you have the bars jacked up like that because you'd like less reach, however. If you want higher bars than a smaller frame will get you, get a Nitto Technomic high rise stem.
11-16-11, 11:47 AM
#12
Senior Member
So you got that one? I emailed after he dropped the price but apparently I was too slow.
I have a 1983 but I think it's a 25". I've been looking for a 27" but I really want one with canti brakes and no luck yet. Did you also get the one in Ft. Collins about 6-12 months ago? Arghh!
Here's mine
It's in pieces now since the BB shell stripped out and I had the shell re-tapped to Italian threads but haven't put it back together again.
It came with the SuperbePro post, long cage RD, original erector-set rear rack, etc. If you're interested in any of that stuff maybe we can make a deal.
I'd really like to test-ride one of your 27" bikes and even try the longer cranks. I'll get in touch once I get my 83 'dale back together.
I have a 1983 but I think it's a 25". I've been looking for a 27" but I really want one with canti brakes and no luck yet. Did you also get the one in Ft. Collins about 6-12 months ago? Arghh!
Here's mine
It's in pieces now since the BB shell stripped out and I had the shell re-tapped to Italian threads but haven't put it back together again.
It came with the SuperbePro post, long cage RD, original erector-set rear rack, etc. If you're interested in any of that stuff maybe we can make a deal.
I'd really like to test-ride one of your 27" bikes and even try the longer cranks. I'll get in touch once I get my 83 'dale back together.
11-16-11, 12:03 PM
#13
Freewheel Medic
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mtnbke is a big guy. Over 2 meters he claims. I believe it!
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Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
11-16-11, 12:12 PM
#14
aka: Dr. Cannondale
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OK, I'll say it: Use a powder coating expert who has experience with high performance aluminum and it's not an issue. Best I've found is Len McCreary at Figure LLC in Manassas Park, VA. Great guy, a cyclist himself, and his work is perfect. As in perfect. He's done a bunch of frames for me over the past several years. All of them have been built up for customers who have not not a lick of trouble with them. There's another 6 or so coming his way soon for my over-the-winter build activities.
My personal favorite is also the 86-88 ST, but I like the caliper version better than the canti ones. Tektro 556's, R200L levers, Sakae Road Champion 38's, Ritchey Streem saddle, Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pro rims with Michelin Pro3's, 9 speed cassette with Dura-Ace DT shifters, Ultegra or D-A FD/RD, and either a sweet 53/39/30 triple or 50/34 compact. Built a bunch like that, and you can ride 'em across the country without a problem, as several of my customers have done.
The Criterium-style bikes have their place as well, lots of people around here like them. Even with the tighter geometry they make a nice daily rider.
My personal favorite is also the 86-88 ST, but I like the caliper version better than the canti ones. Tektro 556's, R200L levers, Sakae Road Champion 38's, Ritchey Streem saddle, Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pro rims with Michelin Pro3's, 9 speed cassette with Dura-Ace DT shifters, Ultegra or D-A FD/RD, and either a sweet 53/39/30 triple or 50/34 compact. Built a bunch like that, and you can ride 'em across the country without a problem, as several of my customers have done.
The Criterium-style bikes have their place as well, lots of people around here like them. Even with the tighter geometry they make a nice daily rider.
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11-16-11, 12:16 PM
#15
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Iowgian, didn't you have"looking for 66cm St800" in your signature ? Did you settle for the 63cm or just give up looking?
11-16-11, 12:33 PM
#16
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To the OP: After all of the smack you have posted in previous threads, I hope you actually ride it
My suggestion would be to get some high spoke count wheels
My suggestion would be to get some high spoke count wheels
11-16-11, 12:44 PM
#17
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Yes, they all had steel forks the first few years.
What's "BOB" ?
What's "BOB" ?
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Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
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Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike.
FYI: https://www.bikeforums.net/forum-sugg...ad-please.html
11-16-11, 01:31 PM
#18
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Bridgestone Owners Bunch, the Grant Petersen Bible.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgest...ellisabob.html
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgest...ellisabob.html
11-16-11, 02:19 PM
#19
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What is "epic" about them and what does that even mean********** Just seems like a XL verison of a garden variety road bike from the mid-late 80's. If you like it, great. You need to ride more and write less.
11-16-11, 02:31 PM
#20
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Although pricey, as you say, I'd save for a get the Phil 48s. They will last a lifetime and you won't break an axle.
Looks like a fine bike for you. I bought one of C'dale's handebar bags from the era before they made bikes. Well thought out design, well made, and lasted many years.
I had an '84 C'dale road bike with Campy SR/NR. Those robust welds were impressive.
Looks like a fine bike for you. I bought one of C'dale's handebar bags from the era before they made bikes. Well thought out design, well made, and lasted many years.
I had an '84 C'dale road bike with Campy SR/NR. Those robust welds were impressive.
11-16-11, 03:26 PM
#23
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11-16-11, 04:58 PM
#24
Freewheel Medic
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OK, I'll say it: Use a powder coating expert who has experience with high performance aluminum and it's not an issue. Best I've found is Len McCreary at Figure LLC in Manassas Park, VA. Great guy, a cyclist himself, and his work is perfect. As in perfect. He's done a bunch of frames for me over the past several years. All of them have been built up for customers who have not not a lick of trouble with them. There's another 6 or so coming his way soon for my over-the-winter build activities.
__________________
Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
11-16-11, 06:00 PM
#25
Senior Member
As for the 'epic' stuff, to me these bikes really shine in the large sizes. I have no idea what a 56cm would be like but in the sizes talked about in this thread I've never had a steel bike come close, and I have some well-regarded touring frames such as a Specialized Expedition, a Miyata 1000 clone (Univega), and others. For stiffness and load-handling ability the over-sized AL tubing in these frames is the ticket for me. Even unloaded, I enjoy the stiffness of the frame since us big guys can generate a lot of torque, even if it is only for a few yards