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  1. #26
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    NOTE: Started a new thread with the BB question, since I thought it might be helpful for others.
    Last edited by simmonsgc; 01-14-12 at 11:24 AM. Reason: to make a new thread, added URL

  2. #27
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Prepping to media blast

    Well, I visited Steve Garn at BREW Bikes up in Ashe County, NC. He looked the frame over and we talked about powdercoat vs paint. He showed me some samples and also a couple of custom motorcycle frames he had powder coated with a color called "black chrome." It is almost a perfect match for the dark pewter metallic that is failing on this bike. As I said in earlier posts, the Imron paint is in much worse shape than photos reveal. It seems to just be "letting go," (see photo) and there are lots of spider lines and large patches of hideous touch-up with rust under them. Steve was cool with me blasting the frame myself ("It'll save you a hundred bucks!") and taking it back to him to powdercoat after it's prepped.

    This morning, I took photos/measurement of the size and placement of the decals. Then I used the blow dryer/dental tape trick, and removed the head badge with no trouble. It'll go back on when I build it back up. While I had the blow dryer going, I used it on the seat tube decal, and with a little care and coaxing, got it off in one piece. So, that gives me an option for scanning, I suppose. For the record, it appears to be a vinyl sticker, and was not under clearcoat. The only other sticker is the Reynolds one.

    So, I'll get this frame in the sandblast booth sometime next week probably. Anyone who has blasted frames here? I'd appreciate any tips/tricks for protecting the BB, rack, water bottle, dropout adjuster and derailleur hanger threads. Just run in spare/scrap ones to protect the threads, and plug the BB, steerer, and weeps? Finally, lest anyone point out that I'm ruining the "collectability" of this bike...I truly appreciate that point of view, but I intend to ride this thing until I can't ride bikes anymore (I'm 50 now). The frame wasn't going to last as is, and Steve said he'll be happy to braze in silver for any existing pitting or needed repairs. I'll post another update as the process goes forward. Lotsa fun!

    Last edited by simmonsgc; 01-14-12 at 02:07 PM.

  3. #28
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Stopped by Magic Cycles (my LBS) this afternoon and scored a scrap derailleur hanger bolt to use while sandblasting, and had enough spares for the other bosses. Would a Q-tip body or coffee-stirrer be good enough to protect the dropout adjuster threads? That's the only thing left to sort out before I can media blast it. Those dropout adjustment screws aren't just lying around everywhere, and I didn't want to wreck good ones. Anyone have experience with that?

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsgc View Post
    Stopped by Magic Cycles (my LBS) this afternoon and scored a scrap derailleur hanger bolt to use while sandblasting, and had enough spares for the other bosses. Would a Q-tip body or coffee-stirrer be good enough to protect the dropout adjuster threads? That's the only thing left to sort out before I can media blast it. Those dropout adjustment screws aren't just lying around everywhere, and I didn't want to wreck good ones. Anyone have experience with that?
    those things are all over the net. here's one. http://www.amazon.com/Dropout-Adjust.../dp/B001GSOHXQ

    splurge a little.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
    +1
    And if it's a 614m it's not just a humble opinion: The catalog specs 531 main tubes only.
    It does not detract from the ride though - every 6xx was terrific!
    That might be too many plusses. My i984 610 (newer than either of these) came with a steer tube stamped "Tange." Is this consistent with Ishiwata? Besides, Trek's catalog language is different, but still vague, for different years.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simmonsgc View Post
    Hi folks, I'm beginning to shop for parts and was considering swapping in a UN-55 since the cups of the old BB are in rough shape (and may do the same on my wife's Trek). I've read the threads about sizing and still I'm not sure I have it straight. The old spindle is an asymmetrical one, stamped "3U" and has the exact dimensions listed in Sheldon's table - 124.5 overall length, 32 non-drive side, 40.5 drive side. In the market, I'm seeing only 122.5 and 127 as choices in the UN-55. Can those of you who have swapped in lots of these on 68mm shells with a triple crank point the way for me a little bit? I know I should've measured the chainline to the middle ring before I broke the bike down, but it slipped my mind.
    Can't you just re-assemble and measure it?

  7. #32
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    Can't you just re-assemble and measure it?
    Oh yeah, of course, and that was no problem. The BB question was more related to the "black art" (as Southpaw called it in the other thread) of figuring out the modern symmetrical BB spindle length for the original asymmetrical 124.5 spindle, taking into account the Q factor, etc. I've always rebuilt these 1980s BBs, rather than swapping in a new Shimano cartridge, so I'm still learning about spacers...and Southpaw's suggestion of 122.5 with a spacer to start was very helpful. He actually improved the tread on one of his bikes during this process.
    Last edited by simmonsgc; 01-16-12 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #33
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    sandblasting done

    Found time to get the frame/fork blasted this afternoon. The imron did its job for 30 years, but it came off very easily in large areas. I was happy to find only minimal topical rust, and only one or two small spots that had some small pitting. Other than that, the frame is in lovely shape. Nice Suntour GS dropouts, and to my surprise, campy brazed-on cable guides. Still deciding about any additional bosses or stops I want brazed on while it is stripped. I dunno, I kinda like it the way it is...maybe an extra water bottle on the seat tube. I'll always run barcons on this bike; would you get stops added and forgo the suntour "cigar band" on the downtube?



    Last edited by simmonsgc; 02-23-12 at 01:24 PM. Reason: typo

  9. #34
    )) <> (( illwafer's Avatar
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    if you are going to get other work done, say water bottle mounts, then go ahead and get the DT mounts. i'd actually prefer the band than mounts + stops, but you might change your mind about DT shifters. it would also slightly help resale value.

  10. #35
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    +1 on having the DT mounts added.

    Looking forward to the finished product.

  11. #36
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by illwafer View Post
    i'd actually prefer the band than mounts + stops...
    Yeah, me too...hence the "like it the way it is" thought. The chrome suntour double cable stop is a nice little bit of bike jewelry. And I have a nice set of Suntour Symmetrics I could use if I ever go to DT shifters. Though I don't see that happening.

  12. #37
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    I would probably think about putting rack bosses put on the fork. I agree on the dt shifter bosses, leave them off.

  13. #38
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Just a quick update. Dropped the frame off to Steve Garn over at BREW Bikes. After talking about options, and considering how I'm gonna use the bike, I decided on braze-ons. He's adding rack bosses on the front fork for a handlebar bag, DT shifter bosses, ST water bottle bosses, and lastly, a boss on the chainstay brace behind the BB for ease of rear fender mounting. So, seven braze-ons altogether. Steve is teaching a frame-building class next week, so it might be a couple/few weeks until I get it back.

    JR. is gonna hook me up with replacement decals. Since I'm going back with a dark pewter powdercoat, I'm planning on changing the seat tube decal to one with a darkish red background. This is just a personal aesthetic choice.

    I'll post some pics when I pick up the frame.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Are you going to get brake pivots? I understand the ones for cantis result in a bike where you can't easily change tire size, even from 700 to 27" and back. However, I haven't tried them. I'm not sure any single brake can accommodate 650 through 27 inch. But I've found the Mafac Racer brakes have not only a long reach but can adjust down to a very short reach. If you get Mafac pivots put on and placed correctly, you should have a very adjustable and powerful brake system. You'll need to get a rear cable hangar brazed on - the various bolt-on solutions don't work too well on these frames, even with a 27.4 mm seattube.

  15. #40
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    No, though I pondered that too. I'm not doing cantis on this one. I'm not going to do unsupported touring on this bike, and I'm less than 160 lbs. I plan to go back with Tektro dual pivots/kool stops. I do have a pair of vintage gran compe centerpulls lying around, but didn't want to commit to a brazed on hanger. My wife has been eyeing them for her bike posted earlier up the thread. Perhaps they'd work for her (light as she is), even mounted on a center bolt.

    I really appreciate all the thoughtful questions and advice in this thread.

  16. #41
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Post-powdercoat

    Steve finished the powdercoat job and I recently picked it up. The color was called "black chrome" and it was a perfect match for the dark pewter color that was on the bike originally. What a lovely job he did with the brazing, adding DT shifter bosses, extra water bottle bosses on the seat tube, rack mounts on the front fork, and even a boss on the chainstay brace behind the BB in case I decide to add fenders. The powdercoat job looks like paint to me. Wow. I'm not a photographer, but did the best I could here...



    Not bad when you can still read the dropouts after a powdercoat job.



    Rack mounts on the front fork.



    Head tube, still with excellent lug detail.



    Lastly a photo of Steve (L) in front of his shop, Brew Bikes in Creston, NC. What a great guy, and what a great job. Recommended highly!


  17. #42
    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    Congratulations on the great results on the frame. You made a great Trek so many times better...but I wish i was able to add one suggestion for an additional braze-on detail.....a chain hanger peg on the drive side seatstay! I can't seem to see one on the frame in your pics. I personally could not live without one on my bikes. I'm really puzzled why they don't have them on new bikes these days...
    Have fun with the Trek when you finally get it back on the road this season(?)!

    Chombi
    Last edited by Chombi; 02-23-12 at 09:43 PM.

  18. #43
    Rustbelt Rider mkeller234's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I recently bought a UN-55 bottom bracket with 127.5mm spindle to use with my Sugino AT cranks. Those are some fine cranks, you could climb some real grades with gears like that.

    The frame looks great! I've never seen fork bosses that go all the way through like that.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    There is a lot more to learn about low-trail. That Trek just really isn't low-trail. It's 50 degrees. Low trail is more like 43 mm max.
    Quote Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
    There is a lot more to learn about low-trail. That Trek just really isn't low-trail. It's 50 degrees. Low trail is more like 43 mm max.

    I just want to tell you both good luck. We're all counting on you
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    You are not one of us. Your pipes are leaking. You are an ocelot. What are you seeking?

  20. #45
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
    .....a chain hanger peg on the drive side seatstay! I can't seem to see one on the frame in your pics.
    I couldn't live without one either! It's there, just didn't show in any of the pics. It's peeking around the right chainstay in the second pic in this thread, and in the sandblasted photo, tho. You're right, those hangers are one of those simple, utilitarian ideas. Thanks for the good wishes.
    Last edited by simmonsgc; 02-24-12 at 07:53 AM. Reason: typo

  21. #46
    slow as I ever was Ex Pres's Avatar
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    That is one of the best p'coat jobs I've seen posted on here.
    If you're interested in the decals, I bought my powder blue w/yellow trim ST ('83 600) from velocals, and it was easy to apply. He has many color options available on this one.
    Last edited by Ex Pres; 02-24-12 at 07:50 AM.
    72 special CNC ___________ 72 Frejus (ala Legnano) __73 Holdsworth Record
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  22. #47
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkeller234 View Post
    For what it's worth, I recently bought a UN-55 bottom bracket with 127.5mm spindle...
    Well, we see how the loose ball/cartridge swap goes. You didn't mention what bike you bought the 127.5 for, but after consulting helpful folks here and some local pals, I got a 122mm UN55 for this bike. Southpaw told me about stepping down the spindle size and using some spacers on the drive side to improve the Q. He's done that successfully. I have to say there is a lot of room for that kind of improvement here, while preserving the ~43mm chainline. There was a good 22mm of space between the inboard side of the cranks and the chainstays on this bike. Well see how it goes. I may wind up having to order the 127 as well. Good to have a few of those lying around anyway. You're preaching to the choir about Sugino AT's. I love 'em. I live in the mountains, and being a real wimp, I need a serious drivetrain for long day rides.

    I've never seen fork bosses like this either. We originally agreed on eyelets brazed on the fronts of the fork blades, but Steve told me that he decided to do it "old school touring" style. He's forgotten more about bikes than I'll ever know, so I figure, fair enough! It will be interesting to see how they work, and what attachment options they provide. I plan to make my own front rack for this bike, so I was thinking I could maybe do something cool with an attachment on each side or something.

  23. #48
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ex Pres View Post
    That is one of the best p'coat jobs I've seen posted on here.
    If you're interested in the decals, I bought my powder blue w/yellow trim ST ('83 600) from velocals, and it was easy to apply. He has many color options available on this one.
    Funny you should mention JR., velocals, and different colors. I opted for this one:



    I may PM about applying. Did you do waterslide or dry?

  24. #49
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Headset woes...

    The original headset was indexed, and the races in poor shape. After taking a digital caliper to the steer tube and the old headset, I was surprised to find that this frame takes a FULL JIS headset (30.0 cups, 27.0 crown race; the steer tube ID on this frame is 29.8). The pickings are pretty slim on these as far as I can tell. I've only found a couple online:

    Here's a cheap one from Ben's Cycle (I emailed to make sure it was really 30.0 and not a typo)

    Here a nicer one from Niagra (stack height is better on this one, too).

    Mazdaspeed posted a thread about this last year. Shopping online is frustrating as he points out, due to lack of provided specs.

    Suggestions? I suppose I'm leaning toward the LV-11.
    Last edited by simmonsgc; 03-03-12 at 07:27 AM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member simmonsgc's Avatar
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    Almost ready to start building it up. Waiting on one replacement decal, and I need to find some replacement inner chainring bolts for the sugino triple. The old ones are completely rusted out and would look lousy on the new build. Original 27 in Rigidas are have been cleaned up and trued with the hubs rebuilt. Front and rear cyclones have been cleaned/serviced and are ready to go (I even repainted the black background behind the logo on the rear derailleur). Freewheel is ready to go, as well as the rest of the drivetrain. I'm planning to change the half-step gearing, which doesn't work so well for me up here in the mountains. I'm going with 26-36-48 I think. Depends on which freewheel I go back with...this thing had a 14-34 with 26-40-45 on it when I bought it, so chain wrap may be an issue if I stick with the original freewheel. I'll have to do all the math when I get right down to it.

    Chombi: Note the chain hanger!

    Last edited by simmonsgc; 04-09-12 at 01:40 PM.

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