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Old 12-30-11, 11:05 PM   #1
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Despicable. Loathsome. . . . . . (Ambrosio 19 Elite rims)

Despicable. Loathsome.

That's what you have to say when you're mounting (or dismounting) 700c tires on Ambrosio 19 rims.

I've done this a few times before, and it's not pretty.

In fact, just this evening, I became so fed up with it (snapping two tire irons and destroying the bead on two tires) that I decided to spend some money on a substitute rim, and naturally, the first thing I wanted to know was the ERD.

Lo and behold, the Ambrosio 19 is listed on Spokecalc as a 27" rim !
- Not surprisingly: 700c tires mount as if it was a 27" rim.
- But an Ambrosio 19 is a 700c rim. -Isn't it?
- Velobase lists it as a 700c Rim - but then again, I would expect a 700c rim to have an ERD of about 612, not 620!

I have had two bikes with Ambrosio 19's, and BOTH came with 700c tires.

Wot the hey?
There is nothing on the rim itself saying one way or the other - 700c or 27".

Which is it?
27" or 700c?
Despicable or Loathsome?




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Old 12-30-11, 11:29 PM   #2
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but have you measured them and compared them to other rims?
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Old 12-30-11, 11:32 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by mazdaspeed View Post
Sorry if this is a stupid question but have you measured them and compared them to other rims?
Well, they are 8mm larger than 700c Sun CR18s.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:39 PM   #4
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Well, they are 8mm larger than 700c Sun CR18s.
You mean the diameter is 8mm more? if so that's a huge problem lol.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:41 PM   #5
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I've had the same problems with mine
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Old 12-30-11, 11:44 PM   #6
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Old 12-30-11, 11:56 PM   #7
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Man, I am THERE right with you, Harry!

I am pretty sure now though that they are actually 27" rims, that were erroneously spec'd on bikes that were SUPPOSED to take 700c tires.
- Yeah, you can force them on with an aggressive tool (like a flat bladed screwdriver), but I think I'll just calculate what new spokes I need to build up a new wheel with some actual 700c Sun rims.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:59 PM   #8
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I'm not sure if they're 27", if the diameter is 8mm more than a 700c rim that would mean the radius is 4mm more. I've converted 27" wheel bikes to 700c and I'm pretty sure the difference in brake reach was more than 4mm. Could be wrong though.
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Old 12-31-11, 12:05 AM   #9
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Have you tried mounting a 27" tire on one? If the bead seats and holds the prescribed amount of air, I think that would be good evidence that you have 27" rims on your hands.
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Old 12-31-11, 12:18 AM   #10
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Have you tried mounting a 27" tire on one?
Based on your question, I just tried it and the 27' is too large. Thus, it is not a 27" rim after all ....
- But I am just as certain it is not a 700c either.
In fact, in this case, it's just more recyclable aluminum.
(I'm not going to destroy any more tires with them.)
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Old 12-31-11, 12:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
But I am just as certain it is not a 700c either.
In fact, in this case, it's just more recyclable aluminum.
Trust me, it's a 700C. I have a pair of these on my 1973 Raleigh Competition, of which I recently de-laced the front rim so I could swap the hub onto my '82 Superior (and re-build that rim at a later date - and I still haven't). Doing so reminded me just how difficult it is to remove - or install - the Specialized Mondo tires. Mind you, the Mondos would virtually slip on and off my set of FSA RD-80's.

Let me know when you're sick of busting tire levers. I'll be glad to put up with them. Contrary to popular belief, I do have a set of metal tire levers alongside my Pedros - just in case a pair of these Ambrosios find their way into my shop.

-Kurt
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Old 12-31-11, 12:28 AM   #12
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Just out of curiosity, do you have (or have you used) one of these?



Because once you have done so, you will wonder why you did not
do so earlier..........they really only work well with installation....
but they work really well with installation on otherwise tight tire
and rim combinations.

Well worth the price of admission, no matter what the old farts
who install everything with hands and secret techniques tell you.
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Old 12-31-11, 12:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Trust me, it's a 700C. I have a pair of these on my 1973 Raleigh Competition, of which I recently de-laced the front rim so I could swap the hub onto my '82 Superior (and re-build that rim at a later date - and I still haven't). Doing so reminded me just how difficult it is to remove - or install - the Specialized Mondo tires. Mind you, the Mondos would virtually slip on and off my set of FSA RD-80's.

Let me know when you're sick of busting tire levers. I'll be glad to put up with them. Contrary to popular belief, I do have a set of metal tire levers alongside my Pedros - just in case a pair of these Ambrosios find their way into my shop.

-Kurt
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Old 12-31-11, 12:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
Just out of curiosity, do you have (or have you used) one of these?



Because once you have done so, you will wonder why you did not
do so earlier..........they really only work well with installation....
but they work really well with installation on otherwise tight tire
and rim combinations.

Well worth the price of admission, no matter what the old farts
who install everything with hands and secret techniques tell you.
Hi 3alarmer - I appreciate the tip for tire installation, and I just may spring for one of those tools next time I visit REI, but I am afraid I'm falling squarely into that "old farts' category. Being able to remove a tire to fix a flat is just as important as installing one. My bike and I would be better off with something that is a little friendlier to my tires (not to mention my fingers).
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Old 12-31-11, 01:43 AM   #15
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here's the deal as I have experienced it. The newer, tighter beads on a lot
of high pressure tires make them very..........tedious.....to mount on some rims
like your Ambrosios or Matrix rims from a while back (narrow/no channel in the center
of rim into which to drop the opposite bead end, etc.)

What I've discovered is that if you can get the ****ers on once, inflate them to high
pressure, and ride on them for a while, the beads stretch a little in use, thus they
are a little easier to dismount/remount when next comes the time for a flat repair.

So you can be as old a fart as you want, Auchen. But if you ain't tried it, don't
knock it..............
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Old 12-31-11, 03:59 AM   #16
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Ambrosios....BTDT, 27" and 700C, both are a b!tch. It was easy to be confused with perhaps you're mounting a 700C on a 27" rim. You can't imagine it being this difficult. But it is.
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Old 12-31-11, 04:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
Being able to remove a tire to fix a flat is just as important as installing one. My bike and I would be better off with something that is a little friendlier to my tires (not to mention my fingers).
If you're not locked in to using older rims, current Mavic rims are pretty nice when it comes to mounting tires. I've got a set of wheels with Open Pro rims and another wheel with an Open Sport rim, and tires slip on and off pretty easily - even wire bead Conti Grand Prix. New ones come with pretty ugly stickers, but with those stickers off, they look like the traditional rims they are.
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Old 12-31-11, 05:31 AM   #18
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I used to have a pair of those rims. I got a flat on a group ride and was having some difficulty with it. one of the guys decided to help well.... you should have seen the looks of the passerbyers as he stood there fighting with that wheel. the tapestry of profanity he wove could still be floating over Lake Michagan for all I know
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Old 12-31-11, 05:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
here's the deal as I have experienced it. The newer, tighter beads on a lot
of high pressure tires make them very..........tedious.....to mount on some rims
like your Ambrosios or Matrix rims from a while back (narrow/no channel in the center
of rim into which to drop the opposite bead end, etc.)

What I've discovered is that if you can get the ****ers on once, inflate them to high
pressure, and ride on them for a while, the beads stretch a little in use, thus they
are a little easier to dismount/remount when next comes the time for a flat repair.

So you can be as old a fart as you want, Auchen. But if you ain't tried it, don't
knock it..............
Agreed.

I have Matrix rims on a very nice 1977 Colnago Super.

Thanks again Bibliobob!

These Matrix rims are foul creatures at best, and will be swapped out after I have figured out what the next step is for the wheels.

Until then, Crank Brothers tire levers are my personal choice for tough rims.

OFG recommended them to me and it is the only tire tool I carry at this point.

3alarmer, are the pictured levers Crank Brothers or another brand?
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Old 12-31-11, 07:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gomango View Post

3alarmer, are the pictured levers Crank Brothers or another brand?
http://www.amazon.com/Kool-Stop-Tire.../dp/B001AYML7K


..............................Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack
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Old 12-31-11, 07:53 AM   #21
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http://www.amazon.com/Kool-Stop-Tire.../dp/B001AYML7K


..............................Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack
Cool.

Thanks!

A little like the Crank model with an extra arm.

I'll try them.
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Old 12-31-11, 09:38 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
here's the deal as I have experienced it. The newer, tighter beads on a lot
of high pressure tires make them very..........tedious.....to mount on some rims
like your Ambrosios or Matrix rims from a while back (narrow/no channel in the center
of rim into which to drop the opposite bead end, etc.)

What I've discovered is that if you can get the ****ers on once, inflate them to high
pressure, and ride on them for a while, the beads stretch a little in use, thus they
are a little easier to dismount/remount when next comes the time for a flat repair.

So you can be as old a fart as you want, Auchen. But if you ain't tried it, don't
knock it..............
Interesting, I've sometimes put talc on the inner surface of the tire to get it to slide over easer - worked on my Pasela TG 32s on Diagonale 700c rims. But I'd have concluded this is a 27 inch rim.
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Old 12-31-11, 10:15 AM   #23
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I have a set of these rims with Vittoria georgia "22" (22-622) tires on them. It is little bit scary how easily the tires mount or dismount.They actually seem too loose but have never had a problem even at full pressure. Does anyone know of a comparable tire that is still available ?
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Old 12-31-11, 11:13 AM   #24
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These rims, like several others, were manufactured in both 27" and 700C versions (and even a 24" version). The OP needs to measure the brake radius or outer diameter of the rim. These are 311mm and 634mm respectively for a 700C rim, while a 27" rim is 315mm and 642 mm respectively. These are nominal dimensions and actual measurements may vary slightly. Due to manufacturing tolerances it can be also be difficult to get tires to fit a rim, when they are at the oppsite ends of the tolerance limits.
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Old 12-31-11, 03:55 PM   #25
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It is a great tragedy that curling up in the foetal position, sucking your thumb and weeping copiously won't help mount a tire on an Ambrosio. I always have great hopes that it will, but it never does.
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