wheel build advice
01-03-12, 12:15 PM
#76
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You do realize that you're rounding the spoke length up to 2mm on each side - correct? The joint makes no appreciable difference in anything. You must not build with carbon much either.....
It's akin to someone buying a new computer and then taking every blank DVD and checking to see whether or not it will fit into the drive on the computer before they use it. Do I take issue with it? - not when you do it for yourself, but when implying that everyone should check to see whether or not every DVD they have will work in the drive they have before they start using it?....yeah....I guess I have an issue with that. Show me a single appreciable gain that is meaningful and not completely and totally negated by the large variance that exists in the acceptable spoke lengths already calculated and rounded to 2mm.
- My track record more than speaks for itself - many times over.
It's akin to someone buying a new computer and then taking every blank DVD and checking to see whether or not it will fit into the drive on the computer before they use it. Do I take issue with it? - not when you do it for yourself, but when implying that everyone should check to see whether or not every DVD they have will work in the drive they have before they start using it?....yeah....I guess I have an issue with that. Show me a single appreciable gain that is meaningful and not completely and totally negated by the large variance that exists in the acceptable spoke lengths already calculated and rounded to 2mm.
- My track record more than speaks for itself - many times over.2. You are being facetious, we're talking about assembly, building, and construction here...see #1. The video makes my point clear....maintaining thread overhead in an ERD is done to ensure tension BEFORE thread run-out.
3. Don't know your record. Don't know your build process. Answer the question...
( Mine are typically 1.5 hours start to finish - sometimes hit 2 hours... )
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-03-12, 12:19 PM
#77
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+1 on the 12mm aspect.
At the shop I worked in we had Phil Wood spoke cutting machine serial number 2 bought right off the show floor. After buying that machine we went from stocking 40 or 50 different spoke part numbers to maybe 10. We'd buy Union 2.0 and 1.8 straight gauge spokes in bags of 1000!!! All I'd do all day long in the winter is build wheels, my boss would buy loose rims and we'd pair them with whatever hubs we had around the shop. Literally I'd build all day every day for weeks on end. Back then we'd use a combination of Sutherlands and then Wheelsmiths Spocalc and of course our chart of known spoke lengths based on previous builds. Started building in the summer of '84 and didnt stop building on regular basis until the summer of '96. 12 years with easily 2-300 builds per year. Wheel building got a heck of alot easier when Mavic began welding and machining sidewalls...that was true game changer.
I currently build with a Hozan stand and Campagnolo dishing tool.
I have street cred...I currently build with a Hozan stand Campagnolo dishing tool.
Heavy rider = heavy rims and heavy spokes with high spoke counts.
Light rider = light rims with light spokes and moderate spke counts.
I'm a firm believer in the 'even number' concwept as there's always a spoke pulling in the opposite direction:
48/4 = 12 therefore there's an opposite pulling spoke
36/4 = 9 therefore there isnt an opposite pulling spoke
32/4 = 8
28/4 = 7
At the shop I worked in we had Phil Wood spoke cutting machine serial number 2 bought right off the show floor. After buying that machine we went from stocking 40 or 50 different spoke part numbers to maybe 10. We'd buy Union 2.0 and 1.8 straight gauge spokes in bags of 1000!!! All I'd do all day long in the winter is build wheels, my boss would buy loose rims and we'd pair them with whatever hubs we had around the shop. Literally I'd build all day every day for weeks on end. Back then we'd use a combination of Sutherlands and then Wheelsmiths Spocalc and of course our chart of known spoke lengths based on previous builds. Started building in the summer of '84 and didnt stop building on regular basis until the summer of '96. 12 years with easily 2-300 builds per year. Wheel building got a heck of alot easier when Mavic began welding and machining sidewalls...that was true game changer.
I currently build with a Hozan stand and Campagnolo dishing tool.
I have street cred...I currently build with a Hozan stand Campagnolo dishing tool.
Heavy rider = heavy rims and heavy spokes with high spoke counts.
Light rider = light rims with light spokes and moderate spke counts.
I'm a firm believer in the 'even number' concwept as there's always a spoke pulling in the opposite direction:
48/4 = 12 therefore there's an opposite pulling spoke
36/4 = 9 therefore there isnt an opposite pulling spoke
32/4 = 8
28/4 = 7
There is no one "standard" nipple. 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 16mm and 20mm standard profile nipples have been around for decades...a few for more than a 1/2 century. Perhaps they are ALL standard nipples? I don't know, I don't claim to be "the" authority.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-03-12, 12:27 PM
#78
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I didn't read a majority of the responses, but from reading this it seems you caught some flak for not using a stand? I personally feel if someone is building one wheel and doesn't want to pop for a stand then so be it. There are a lot of options out there for bootstrapping it and building with the bike is an option.
The centered position of the rim won't change under tire pressure if you have adequately relieved the wheel. If the tensions are as close to even as possible given the rim variations and all of the built up twist, stretch, etc. has been relieved form the system then you won't see movement under pressure or over time even.
FWIW - almost every shop in the US uses a Park TS-2 truing stand. These stands have a claim to fame in that they were one of the first widely available and relatively inexpensive truing stands that appear to easily work/adjust to a wide array of wheel/tire sizes on the fly. In reality though the system/tool has very poor repeatability. If you use their centering gauge to calibrate the stand you will actually be setting it up for "best compromise" over a 100 OLD and 130 OLD. Neither one having calipers truly centered. Easily remedied by using an indicator and flipping the wheel in the stand or "low-rent" flipping the wheel in the stand using one of the calipers only. When the flip results in equal distance to that caliper then it's centered.
Personally I have 2 stands set up - 1 for fronts and 1 for rear and I use indicators and still flip in the stands. The calipers on the stands just give me a window to shoot for when bringing the wheel under tension initially.
The centered position of the rim won't change under tire pressure if you have adequately relieved the wheel. If the tensions are as close to even as possible given the rim variations and all of the built up twist, stretch, etc. has been relieved form the system then you won't see movement under pressure or over time even.
FWIW - almost every shop in the US uses a Park TS-2 truing stand. These stands have a claim to fame in that they were one of the first widely available and relatively inexpensive truing stands that appear to easily work/adjust to a wide array of wheel/tire sizes on the fly. In reality though the system/tool has very poor repeatability. If you use their centering gauge to calibrate the stand you will actually be setting it up for "best compromise" over a 100 OLD and 130 OLD. Neither one having calipers truly centered. Easily remedied by using an indicator and flipping the wheel in the stand or "low-rent" flipping the wheel in the stand using one of the calipers only. When the flip results in equal distance to that caliper then it's centered.
Personally I have 2 stands set up - 1 for fronts and 1 for rear and I use indicators and still flip in the stands. The calipers on the stands just give me a window to shoot for when bringing the wheel under tension initially.
Possibly I am not as particular as some folks, but for my purposes I find that the Park PS2 is repeatable enough (< 0.060" for a straight rim) - The lack of repeatability comes in trying to true pretzels, which is difficult on the stand and nearly impossible without one.
I confess, I built too many wheels without the benefit of a stand, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bit the bullet and invested in one up-front, so to maximize my return.
They make life easier.
__________________
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- Auchen
01-03-12, 12:32 PM
#79
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+1 on the 12mm aspect.
At the shop I worked in we had Phil Wood spoke cutting machine serial number 2 bought right off the show floor. After buying that machine we went from stocking 40 or 50 different spoke part numbers to maybe 10. We'd buy Union 2.0 and 1.8 straight gauge spokes in bags of 1000!!! All I'd do all day long in the winter is build wheels, my boss would buy loose rims and we'd pair them with whatever hubs we had around the shop. Literally I'd build all day every day for weeks on end. Back then we'd use a combination of Sutherlands and then Wheelsmiths Spocalc and of course our chart of known spoke lengths based on previous builds. Started building in the summer of '84 and didnt stop building on regular basis until the summer of '96. 12 years with easily 2-300 builds per year. Wheel building got a heck of alot easier when Mavic began welding and machining sidewalls...that was true game changer.
I currently build with a Hozan stand and Campagnolo dishing tool.
I have street cred...I currently build with a Hozan stand Campagnolo dishing tool.
Heavy rider = heavy rims and heavy spokes with high spoke counts.
Light rider = light rims with light spokes and moderate spke counts.
I'm a firm believer in the 'even number' concwept as there's always a spoke pulling in the opposite direction:
48/4 = 12 therefore there's an opposite pulling spoke
36/4 = 9 therefore there isnt an opposite pulling spoke
32/4 = 8
28/4 = 7
At the shop I worked in we had Phil Wood spoke cutting machine serial number 2 bought right off the show floor. After buying that machine we went from stocking 40 or 50 different spoke part numbers to maybe 10. We'd buy Union 2.0 and 1.8 straight gauge spokes in bags of 1000!!! All I'd do all day long in the winter is build wheels, my boss would buy loose rims and we'd pair them with whatever hubs we had around the shop. Literally I'd build all day every day for weeks on end. Back then we'd use a combination of Sutherlands and then Wheelsmiths Spocalc and of course our chart of known spoke lengths based on previous builds. Started building in the summer of '84 and didnt stop building on regular basis until the summer of '96. 12 years with easily 2-300 builds per year. Wheel building got a heck of alot easier when Mavic began welding and machining sidewalls...that was true game changer.
I currently build with a Hozan stand and Campagnolo dishing tool.
I have street cred...I currently build with a Hozan stand Campagnolo dishing tool.
Heavy rider = heavy rims and heavy spokes with high spoke counts.
Light rider = light rims with light spokes and moderate spke counts.
I'm a firm believer in the 'even number' concwept as there's always a spoke pulling in the opposite direction:
48/4 = 12 therefore there's an opposite pulling spoke
36/4 = 9 therefore there isnt an opposite pulling spoke
32/4 = 8
28/4 = 7
"At the shop I worked in we had Phil Wood spoke cutting machine serial number 2 bought right off the show floor."
You were lucky in that regards...that machine and Phil Wood spoke machines numbered through the teens and possibly into the 20s and 30s had rougly 5/8" (16mm) dies.
I envy anyone who has the older original machines - best ones in my opinion.
Those dies when using the manual long threading method I described earlier easily allowed placing as much as 15mm of threads on a spoke WITHOUT scrubbing the inner machine body. This is heaven for people using "restrictive" 20mm nipples who want the spoke end to go all the way up and past the top of the nipple. Most 20mm nipples today are pretty liberal...but some "old school" ones weren't.
A few months ago Machine #11 got turned back in to Phil Wood in exchange for a brand-new machine with the 1/2" (13.5mm) narrower dies that have been typical for the last two decades...
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-03-12, 12:59 PM
#80
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Here's J&B describing nipples that AREN'T 12mm... "X-LONG 16mm".
Only 3 variants out of 20 part numbers listed at Hawley for nipples were NOT 12mm.
2 out of 10 at Downeast. Most of the rest didn't even list length as it is ASSUMED that you know it would be a "standard" 12mm.
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01-03-12, 01:29 PM
#81
I eat carbide.
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1. Sleight of hand - you avoided the point I raised.
2. You are being facetious, we're talking about assembly, building, and construction here...see #1. The video makes my point clear....maintaining thread overhead in an ERD is done to ensure tension BEFORE thread run-out.
3. Don't know your record. Don't know your build process. Answer the question...
( Mine are typically 1.5 hours start to finish - sometimes hit 2 hours... )
=8-)
2. You are being facetious, we're talking about assembly, building, and construction here...see #1. The video makes my point clear....maintaining thread overhead in an ERD is done to ensure tension BEFORE thread run-out.
3. Don't know your record. Don't know your build process. Answer the question...
( Mine are typically 1.5 hours start to finish - sometimes hit 2 hours... )
=8-)
.....Do I have a spoke machine? Sure. When do I roll? When I am out of stock on a set length. What do I roll to? That set length. Why? Because it works.
As for my record....just google my name. Ask any of my sponsored athletes or National Champions riding my wheels what they think.
No as for technique and time - again what purpose does throughput time serve? Is it an indicator of quality? "Guy 'x' took 3 hours to build something. He must have taken more time to build his work more carefully than guy 'y'?" Really? Kind of like using price as a sole indicator in decision making. In all honesty I work as Lean Manufacturing Manager during the day in my "real" job and build wheels at night and on weekends. 40+ hours at each every week for a total of 80hrs a week.
At that point you look for ways to Poka-yoke your methods/systems. This is setting them up in such a way as to prevent mistakes from happening. You think I would have any tolerance for incorrectly built wheels? Any time to be repairing wheels that have failed? I can't afford to do this wrong.
My builds go into a log where every one is serialized. All of the build dimensions are put into the log - hub, rim, etc. Lengths are calculated both automatically and by hand (iphone app) as a check. Build sheets are printed off - color coded for spoke type, color, length and prep (based on location in the build). Orders are pulled and placed in queue. Spokes are cleaned and prepped and placed on racks and identified. Lacing takes place with a check of the rim, spoke lengths, and hub color and drilling, and nipple colors. Lacing....depends but I can do some in 10-15 minutes. I used to average 20 minutes each a few years ago. Now I would say that they are 15-18 min. I did a process control chart on the process for a while and determined a process mean that was in that range IIRC.
Tension and true/stress-relieving.....can vary. I completely depends on the hub the rim, spokes used, etc. If I have a soft rim that was beat to within an inch of its life back in the factory then it will take a lot of coaxing to find that right balance of everything. If it's a dead-nuts straight and strong rim with great spokes and nice hub geometry then it can be as short as 20-25 minutes. It could be as long as 45 min to 1.5 hours. It all just depends.
Great example - Kinlin rims. Almost everyone is building with them now. I have built with so many my head spins when I consider it. They aren't that straight. They are clamped when the rim is joined at the factory and that clamping leaves 2 minor flat spots in the rim. You learn to recognize where they are and how to deal with them. As such I can now breeze through working with them. Should I somehow be looked upon as doing a poorer job because someone who doesn't work with them often, or is oblivious to the nuances of them takes 2-3 times as long to get the same results?
I build a lot of wheels. My name is on every single one that rolls out the door. They are being used across this country as well as across the world. Everyone knows that the build came from me. I can't afford for anything to go wrong. I know what I am doing and, if you can pardon my lack of humility at the moment, I am damn good at it. Luckily if you ask around - you won't have to take my word on it.
__________________
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01-03-12, 01:43 PM
#82
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Possibly I am not as particular as some folks, but for my purposes I find that the Park PS2 is repeatable enough (< 0.060" for a straight rim) - The lack of repeatability comes in trying to true pretzels, which is difficult on the stand and nearly impossible without one.
I confess, I built too many wheels without the benefit of a stand, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bit the bullet and invested in one up-front, so to maximize my return.
They make life easier.
I confess, I built too many wheels without the benefit of a stand, but if I had it to do over again, I would have bit the bullet and invested in one up-front, so to maximize my return.
They make life easier.
...just know that when you move to another OLD setting that you should check the wheel for dish.
__________________
PSIMET Wheels, PSIMET Racing, PSIMET Neutral Race Support, and 11 Jackson Coffee
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
Podcast - YouTube Channel
Video about PSIMET Wheels
01-03-12, 01:55 PM
#83
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12mm is a "standard" nipple. If you call someone and order "nipples" only without designating the length - you will get 12mm. If you open a box of DT spokes - they're going to have 12mm in them. If you order an OEM pack of nipples - they're 12mm. Sorry.
Here's J&B describing nipples that AREN'T 12mm... "X-LONG 16mm".
Only 3 variants out of 20 part numbers listed at Hawley for nipples were NOT 12mm.
2 out of 10 at Downeast. Most of the rest didn't even list length as it is ASSUMED that you know it would be a "standard" 12mm.
Here's J&B describing nipples that AREN'T 12mm... "X-LONG 16mm".
Only 3 variants out of 20 part numbers listed at Hawley for nipples were NOT 12mm.
2 out of 10 at Downeast. Most of the rest didn't even list length as it is ASSUMED that you know it would be a "standard" 12mm.
Just because someone says its a standard, list something in a catalog as standard versus a different size, etc., doesn't make it so. Even commonality doesn't make something a standard - though that is what typically happens.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-03-12, 02:04 PM
#84
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... The stand can repeat it's centering for a set hub OLD very well over time. But....it most likely won't actually be on center.
....you will discover that the same "spacing" doesn't exist at other OLD settings. ....Center a wheel then re-set/calibrate the stand around that centered wheel (use the same spot in the wheel at all times).......just know that when you move to another OLD setting that you should check the wheel for dish.
....you will discover that the same "spacing" doesn't exist at other OLD settings. ....Center a wheel then re-set/calibrate the stand around that centered wheel (use the same spot in the wheel at all times).......just know that when you move to another OLD setting that you should check the wheel for dish.
I think I follow you and I don't doubt that everything you said is right. (I even used a known good wheel (not one I built
) to calibrate my stand as you suggested.)- I guess all I'm saying is just that for amateurs like me, a TS-2 is an extremely useful tool, despite whatever small inaccuracies it may have.
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01-03-12, 02:05 PM
#85
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I don't see any point you raised....you seemed to be gyrating over fractional millimeters with respect to nipple seat variations......but not actually affecting the real spoke length as purchased for the vast majority of the public.
.....Do I have a spoke machine? Sure. When do I roll? When I am out of stock on a set length. What do I roll to? That set length. Why? Because it works.
As for my record....just google my name. Ask any of my sponsored athletes or National Champions riding my wheels what they think.
No as for technique and time - again what purpose does throughput time serve? Is it an indicator of quality? "Guy 'x' took 3 hours to build something. He must have taken more time to build his work more carefully than guy 'y'?" Really? Kind of like using price as a sole indicator in decision making. In all honesty I work as Lean Manufacturing Manager during the day in my "real" job and build wheels at night and on weekends. 40+ hours at each every week for a total of 80hrs a week.
At that point you look for ways to Poka-yoke your methods/systems. This is setting them up in such a way as to prevent mistakes from happening. You think I would have any tolerance for incorrectly built wheels? Any time to be repairing wheels that have failed? I can't afford to do this wrong.
My builds go into a log where every one is serialized. All of the build dimensions are put into the log - hub, rim, etc. Lengths are calculated both automatically and by hand (iphone app) as a check. Build sheets are printed off - color coded for spoke type, color, length and prep (based on location in the build). Orders are pulled and placed in queue. Spokes are cleaned and prepped and placed on racks and identified. Lacing takes place with a check of the rim, spoke lengths, and hub color and drilling, and nipple colors. Lacing....depends but I can do some in 10-15 minutes. I used to average 20 minutes each a few years ago. Now I would say that they are 15-18 min. I did a process control chart on the process for a while and determined a process mean that was in that range IIRC.
Tension and true/stress-relieving.....can vary. I completely depends on the hub the rim, spokes used, etc. If I have a soft rim that was beat to within an inch of its life back in the factory then it will take a lot of coaxing to find that right balance of everything. If it's a dead-nuts straight and strong rim with great spokes and nice hub geometry then it can be as short as 20-25 minutes. It could be as long as 45 min to 1.5 hours. It all just depends.
Great example - Kinlin rims. Almost everyone is building with them now. I have built with so many my head spins when I consider it. They aren't that straight. They are clamped when the rim is joined at the factory and that clamping leaves 2 minor flat spots in the rim. You learn to recognize where they are and how to deal with them. As such I can now breeze through working with them. Should I somehow be looked upon as doing a poorer job because someone who doesn't work with them often, or is oblivious to the nuances of them takes 2-3 times as long to get the same results?
I build a lot of wheels. My name is on every single one that rolls out the door. They are being used across this country as well as across the world. Everyone knows that the build came from me. I can't afford for anything to go wrong. I know what I am doing and, if you can pardon my lack of humility at the moment, I am damn good at it. Luckily if you ask around - you won't have to take my word on it.
.....Do I have a spoke machine? Sure. When do I roll? When I am out of stock on a set length. What do I roll to? That set length. Why? Because it works.
As for my record....just google my name. Ask any of my sponsored athletes or National Champions riding my wheels what they think.
No as for technique and time - again what purpose does throughput time serve? Is it an indicator of quality? "Guy 'x' took 3 hours to build something. He must have taken more time to build his work more carefully than guy 'y'?" Really? Kind of like using price as a sole indicator in decision making. In all honesty I work as Lean Manufacturing Manager during the day in my "real" job and build wheels at night and on weekends. 40+ hours at each every week for a total of 80hrs a week.
At that point you look for ways to Poka-yoke your methods/systems. This is setting them up in such a way as to prevent mistakes from happening. You think I would have any tolerance for incorrectly built wheels? Any time to be repairing wheels that have failed? I can't afford to do this wrong.
My builds go into a log where every one is serialized. All of the build dimensions are put into the log - hub, rim, etc. Lengths are calculated both automatically and by hand (iphone app) as a check. Build sheets are printed off - color coded for spoke type, color, length and prep (based on location in the build). Orders are pulled and placed in queue. Spokes are cleaned and prepped and placed on racks and identified. Lacing takes place with a check of the rim, spoke lengths, and hub color and drilling, and nipple colors. Lacing....depends but I can do some in 10-15 minutes. I used to average 20 minutes each a few years ago. Now I would say that they are 15-18 min. I did a process control chart on the process for a while and determined a process mean that was in that range IIRC.
Tension and true/stress-relieving.....can vary. I completely depends on the hub the rim, spokes used, etc. If I have a soft rim that was beat to within an inch of its life back in the factory then it will take a lot of coaxing to find that right balance of everything. If it's a dead-nuts straight and strong rim with great spokes and nice hub geometry then it can be as short as 20-25 minutes. It could be as long as 45 min to 1.5 hours. It all just depends.
Great example - Kinlin rims. Almost everyone is building with them now. I have built with so many my head spins when I consider it. They aren't that straight. They are clamped when the rim is joined at the factory and that clamping leaves 2 minor flat spots in the rim. You learn to recognize where they are and how to deal with them. As such I can now breeze through working with them. Should I somehow be looked upon as doing a poorer job because someone who doesn't work with them often, or is oblivious to the nuances of them takes 2-3 times as long to get the same results?
I build a lot of wheels. My name is on every single one that rolls out the door. They are being used across this country as well as across the world. Everyone knows that the build came from me. I can't afford for anything to go wrong. I know what I am doing and, if you can pardon my lack of humility at the moment, I am damn good at it. Luckily if you ask around - you won't have to take my word on it.
Thank you...no nit picking for me there...
Regarding KinLin...the pinching in two spots - very much true of the entry level rims - especially the single walls. Also, the CNC provider they outsource to sometimes gets excessive with the work...have had to toss a few otherwise perfectly good rims as a result year to year. But overall, I'm happy with them.
One thing I really like about KinLin is they get their joints straight - I have yet in about 2000 rims to toss a single rim due to a bad joint.
Let me ask you this: How's the KinLin CNC sidewall work on the high end line of rims? (Customer wants to order some in my next import batch.)
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-03-12, 05:15 PM
#86
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great posts guys. i really enjoy the information.
what are your feelings on spoke and nipple washers? the rims are non eyeleted but will a nipple washer seat well in a aero section rim?
when i was in college i worked 40-50hrs a week in lean manufacturing for a medium sized manufacturer here in iowa. it was a great experience.
what are your feelings on spoke and nipple washers? the rims are non eyeleted but will a nipple washer seat well in a aero section rim?
when i was in college i worked 40-50hrs a week in lean manufacturing for a medium sized manufacturer here in iowa. it was a great experience.
01-03-12, 05:21 PM
#87
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great posts guys. i really enjoy the information.
what are your feelings on spoke and nipple washers? the rims are non eyeleted but will a nipple washer seat well in a aero section rim?
when i was in college i worked 40-50hrs a week in lean manufacturing for a medium sized manufacturer here in iowa. it was a great experience.
what are your feelings on spoke and nipple washers? the rims are non eyeleted but will a nipple washer seat well in a aero section rim?
when i was in college i worked 40-50hrs a week in lean manufacturing for a medium sized manufacturer here in iowa. it was a great experience.
1. Not required unless the rim manufacturer has stated otherwise for the particular model.
2. If used, the added thickness may require an ERD (pre-calc) and/or or spoke length modification.
What made you bring washers up? Just curious...
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-04-12, 10:43 AM
#89
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Dug some nipples out this morn and compared the thread levels on a 12 and 16mm length... mm... now I see. Order a spoke just a mite too long and your "gone fish'n" if you want to get them snugged down with the 16's.
I used the 16's on my last build with the idea the longer nipple helps correct spoke angles... [?]. Make any sense?
Order a spoke just a mite too long and your "gone fish'n" if you want to get them snugged down with the 16's.I used the 16's on my last build with the idea the longer nipple helps correct spoke angles... [?]. Make any sense?
01-04-12, 11:16 AM
#90
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Dug some nipples out this morn and compared the thread levels on a 12 and 16mm length... mm... now I see. Order a spoke just a mite too long and your "gone fish'n" if you want to get them snugged down with the 16's.
I used the 16's on my last build with the idea the longer nipple helps correct spoke angles... [?]. Make any sense?
Order a spoke just a mite too long and your "gone fish'n" if you want to get them snugged down with the 16's.I used the 16's on my last build with the idea the longer nipple helps correct spoke angles... [?]. Make any sense?
Short Base (Hub)
Tall Height (Radial Spoke - top enters nipple.)
Long Hypotenuse (Crossed Spoke and/or Offset Spoke - top enters nipple.)
Let the point at the top formed by the Tall Height and Long Hypotenuse be represented by a 10mm nipple barrel tip with barrel pointing down at base.
Now increase the nipple to 16mm and bring that point and corner of the triangle down 4mm.
Redraw your triangle...inside the old one using a lighter sketch or different color.
Questions:
1. What has happened to the angle formed at the bottom by the Short Base and the Long Hypotenuse?
2. Has the angle at which the Long Hypotenuse (Crossing Spoke) enters the nipple lessened or increased?
2a. Is the move to a 16mm nipple increasing or decreasing the potential stress riser caused by edge of the nipple barrel against the spoke?
Yesterday, as a follow up to someone back east who is considering restoring / rebuilding "very old school" wheels that use 20mm nipples, I flipped the stopper on the threading mechanism on my Kowa Spoke Cutter.
A CN Spoke 20mm standard profile nipple allow a Ritchey Logic with 9.5mm of threads to go to a point exactly 1mm below the screwdriver flat. To maintain overhead, I would have to aim as much as a millimeter below that.
Most folks here would say, "Now that's really pushing it on the short side of things MrRabbit - you're crossing into nipple head and barrel separation territory!" I would agree...
I took a spoke and ran it through - and got 13.2mm of threads with the stopper flipped around.
Now that exact same nipple allows that 13.2mm threaded spoke to poke through the top 2mm or about 3 threads. It now behaves as a 10mm nipple...
What does this mean? The potentional customer can just fire up SpokeCalc, and its ERDs that assume the top of a 10mm standard profile nipple...calculate, order, assemble, and slave away in bliss as-is.
Hand-operated spoke cutters and threaders are extremely handy and versatile tools.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-04-12, 01:16 PM
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See your pt.. the angle then increases at the nipple head.. or tilt.. if you will.
Yet wouldn't this longer barrel tend to straighten the angle and tend to equalize the tension around the nipple head inside.. once at full tension?
Yet wouldn't this longer barrel tend to straighten the angle and tend to equalize the tension around the nipple head inside.. once at full tension?
01-04-12, 01:43 PM
#92
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Yeah, angle increase...
My focus in the exercise was the entry point at the edge of the barrel...you've brought the barrel edge (entry point) more against the spoke - a stress riser risk...but then again...I wouldn't worry so much - for the typical wheel.
Notice that the angular discussion comes up frequently with regard to building wheels with large flange diameters - such as those found on drum brake hubs and generator hubs - say 90.00mm an up. The high angle of entry of the spokes into the nipples for such wheels at 3 cross does increase the chance of the spoke snapping at or around that point.
Typical solution is to simply reduce crossing from 3 to 2. (That's what I do on a lot of e-bike wheels.) Changes in crossing number will have a much bigger angular influence than changing nipple size in most cases.
=8-)
My focus in the exercise was the entry point at the edge of the barrel...you've brought the barrel edge (entry point) more against the spoke - a stress riser risk...but then again...I wouldn't worry so much - for the typical wheel.
Notice that the angular discussion comes up frequently with regard to building wheels with large flange diameters - such as those found on drum brake hubs and generator hubs - say 90.00mm an up. The high angle of entry of the spokes into the nipples for such wheels at 3 cross does increase the chance of the spoke snapping at or around that point.
Typical solution is to simply reduce crossing from 3 to 2. (That's what I do on a lot of e-bike wheels.) Changes in crossing number will have a much bigger angular influence than changing nipple size in most cases.
=8-)
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
01-05-12, 11:14 AM
#93
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S.I.L.S.-Polyax Sapim Integrated Locking System-- Sapim Brass Polyax Nipples
Sapim Brass Polyax Nipples
https://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/sa...x-nipples.html
https://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=products&sub=nipples This one has the self locking feature. Self locking is likey overstating the function.. my term.
Any feeback/input on these nipples? Finding little on the net....
https://www.wheelbuilder.com/store/sa...x-nipples.html
https://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=products&sub=nipples This one has the self locking feature. Self locking is likey overstating the function.. my term.
Any feeback/input on these nipples? Finding little on the net....
01-06-12, 09:29 AM
#94
Newbie
The DT revolutions are the strongest spokes on the market. I do not like the Sapims because they wind up too easily when you are tensioning them.
Have fun!
Have fun!
01-06-12, 10:04 AM
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Any REAL WORLD data to support your claim?
You have Fun too!
Last edited by SortaGrey; 01-06-12 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Spell
01-06-12, 10:12 AM
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Take a look at this guy's findings: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...gestions/page2 Post #27. Seems his NON bias findings don't jive with your claim.
Any REAL WORLD data to support your claim?
You have Fun too!
Any REAL WORLD data to support your claim?
You have Fun too!
REAL WORLD data is that proffesional builders have been building with them for years and professionals have raced on them for years. While other spoke manufacturers have come and gone and a few have hung around DT has been at the front. That's your REAL WORLD data.
01-06-12, 10:44 AM
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Like he provided real world info to...so what, he did a non-scientific 'tension test' at work. Probably did it on the clock to.
I fail to see what is NON scientific about the test? One bust each.. yes some room for more validity. But the test in my eyes carries some merit... it's just a practical comparison showing essentially that steel is steel. Strength claims withstanding....... no matter who stamps the name.
REAL WORLD data is that proffesional builders have been building with them for years and professionals have raced on them for years. While other spoke manufacturers have come and gone and a few have hung around DT has been at the front. That's your REAL WORLD data.
I fail to see what is NON scientific about the test? One bust each.. yes some room for more validity. But the test in my eyes carries some merit... it's just a practical comparison showing essentially that steel is steel. Strength claims withstanding....... no matter who stamps the name.
REAL WORLD data is that proffesional builders have been building with them for years and professionals have raced on them for years. While other spoke manufacturers have come and gone and a few have hung around DT has been at the front. That's your REAL WORLD data.
I've re-tensioned ONE whole butted spoked wheel.. yes the wind-up was evident.. actually for me a challenge I enjoyed. My bike use doesn't require/call for butted.. obviously others will pay for it. I'd try a 2.3/2.0 on a rear. Thinner middle sections.. while the many make claims for them.. still IMO are more marketing than reality. But.. what do I know.. just my practical opine.
01-06-12, 11:01 AM
#98
Mostly Mischief
I'm new to wheel building, maybe done 2 dozen or so, and I picked up a lot in this thread. Thanks guys! The introduction of Psimet on page 2 did wonders to the quality of responses. Nothing gets a discussion going like a out spoken protagonist with good arguments.
BTW, having a TS-2 I also have not been impressed with the precision and reliability of the calipers on the stand. It just doesn't behave similar each time. Being a novice this kinda threw me off at first, as I, burdened by all the other complexities of wheel building, expected this 'industry standard' tool from the famed Park Company to be a lot more than just a starting point needing previous experience, multiple wheel flips and further tweaks to produce anything even close to correctly dished wheels.
BTW, having a TS-2 I also have not been impressed with the precision and reliability of the calipers on the stand. It just doesn't behave similar each time. Being a novice this kinda threw me off at first, as I, burdened by all the other complexities of wheel building, expected this 'industry standard' tool from the famed Park Company to be a lot more than just a starting point needing previous experience, multiple wheel flips and further tweaks to produce anything even close to correctly dished wheels.
01-06-12, 12:14 PM
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https://i42.tinypic.com/11vlhy0.jpg
My 'truing stand'.. such as it is. Materials might have made the trip over the pond on the Mayflower...
The stand arms are level.. parallel in the same plane and 130 mm apart. 135 slides in fine.. I use washer & bolt spacers on the rod sitting on the stand arms for 100mm.. adding exact spacers to each side to fit the 130 spacing. Spacers are a minor annoyance when removing to stress relieve.. that the only impetus I have to refine this tool.
Reference objects set inside are used for radial true.. the lines on the loose 2x4 are relative to each rim width I'm working on. Definitely not pretty.. but effectively finds a center/dishing easily.
The majority around here could build better I am sure. I lack shop space.. I like simple that works.. and it does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYUOLGEPw9Q Wheel build video.
https://kstoerz.com/freespoke/tech-threadengagement.php Spoke thread engagement.
My 'truing stand'.. such as it is. Materials might have made the trip over the pond on the Mayflower...
The stand arms are level.. parallel in the same plane and 130 mm apart. 135 slides in fine.. I use washer & bolt spacers on the rod sitting on the stand arms for 100mm.. adding exact spacers to each side to fit the 130 spacing. Spacers are a minor annoyance when removing to stress relieve.. that the only impetus I have to refine this tool.
Reference objects set inside are used for radial true.. the lines on the loose 2x4 are relative to each rim width I'm working on. Definitely not pretty.. but effectively finds a center/dishing easily.
The majority around here could build better I am sure. I lack shop space.. I like simple that works.. and it does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYUOLGEPw9Q Wheel build video.
https://kstoerz.com/freespoke/tech-threadengagement.php Spoke thread engagement.
Last edited by SortaGrey; 01-06-12 at 04:51 PM.
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