Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-30-11, 11:40 PM   #1
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
wheel build advice

its been over a year since i bought the parts but i am finally ready to build my NOS wheelset. i intended to do it last year but other things occupied my time any finances (wedding, auto purchase, auto repairs)

i ended up selling the "old" wheels so now i am committed.

rider specs:
6'1"
175lbs

bike specs:
1996 tommasini tecno
campagnolo alloy mix
nice weather casual rides, centuries, charity rides

purchased parts:
NOS 28h chorus/athena front hub

NOS 28h record 10 rear hub

NOS 28h seoul 88 rims (602 ERD)


spoke plans:
font
2x
dt revolution 1.8/1.5 (or sapim cxray)

rear
2x
dt competition 1.8/1.6 (or cxray) drive side
dt revolution 1.8/1.5 (or cxray) NDS


which of these if any do you recommend? will these be sufficiently stiff or should i go with heavier spokes?

i used two spoke calculators and got the same results but i still wouldnt mind someone checking my work:

Last edited by thirdgenbird; 12-31-11 at 11:39 AM. Reason: updated chart
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-11, 11:47 PM   #2
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
if anyone has any overall advice for wheel builds i am all ears. am i silly for tackling this without a tension gauge?
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-11, 11:56 PM   #3
mazdaspeed
Senior Member
 
mazdaspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WA state
Bikes:
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Based on my research, sapim spokes come highly recommended and that's what I'm going to use when I build a set of wheels. I doubt you need heavier spokes, if the rim is strong and they're laced correctly I doubt it's a problem. The sapims are supposedly pretty strong anyway.

This is also highly recommended: (look up reviews they're all extremely positive)

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

Lastly if you feel like you need a tension gauge you can borrow mine if you want to pay for shipping there and back, I won't need it for a few weeks at least. I won a wheelsmith gauge on ebay for $20 a few months ago lol...
mazdaspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:01 AM   #4
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
thanks!

the rims are very stout. they are the same as the old omega V. here is a quote from velobase:
Quote:
Years ago Jobst Brandt did some rim stiffness tests and this rim was amongst the very best tested, exceeding that of the Zipp 808, which had just come out when Jobst was testing
ive read good things about the cxray spokes as well but cant decide if it is worth the extra cost


i may take you up on the tension gauge. im not sure when i will get the spoke order in but if i need it i will be in contact.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:02 AM   #5
DRietz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 2,699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Casey,

First things first - screw you for owning that Record 28h hub. :drool:

Second - your build looks great for your weight. DT Rev spokes are fantastic, and I used them around my entire rear wheel as well as alloy nipples to go for a truly light set up. However, based on the fact that you power around on 180mm cranks, I'd say keep the Competitions on the drive side.

From my experience, DT outdoes Sapim by a tenfold margin in terms of quality and longevity - plus they're US-based. The only reason to go for Sapim is if you're building an aero wheel, and with 28spokes on front and rear, you're going to hit an aero block far before those spokes will have a chance to do you any good.

Third - unsure if you've built wheels before, but you DON'T need a spoke gauge. My experience with spoke gauges is that they can cause some pretty serious headaches that aren't really warranted when building a bicycle wheel.

Fourth - if you were closer to me, I'd volunteer to come help you out, but I have faith that you can do this. Wheel building is fun as hell and very meditative.

Fifth - as a side note, since those wheels don't have eyelets, I think you may need some nipple washers dependent on whatever spoke you choose.
DRietz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:04 AM   #6
auchencrow 
Senior Member
 
auchencrow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Detroit
Bikes:
Posts: 10,330
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
if anyone has any overall advice for wheel builds i am all ears. am i silly for tackling this without a tension gauge?
This might be self evident to most, but having a real wheel truing stand makes this job immeasurably easier.
The second bit of advice is to focus on getting the wheel ROUND first - tensioning it gradually, and then deal with the lateral truing.

I don't think a tension gage is critical if you work slowly and evenly.
__________________
- Auchen
auchencrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:09 AM   #7
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,339
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
I've used Edd Spoke, Sapim Race spokes and chromed, brass nipples on several wheel builds lately and I'll use both for my next wheel build. I buy my spokes from this seller (email). I would build them with cross 3 lacing. I've read and found The Bicycle Wheel and recommend it.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com

Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 12-31-11 at 12:15 AM.
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:10 AM   #8
mazdaspeed
Senior Member
 
mazdaspeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: WA state
Bikes:
Posts: 4,816
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If they're anything like campy omega v rims they're gonna be strong. I have a set of those laced to mavic 501 hubs on my bianchi, I've taken some direct hits, crashed them, and they're still perfectly true. Anyhow it's up to you on the spokes, I dunno where you were planning on buying them from but this place probably has the best prices on sapim:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/Default.asp
mazdaspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:14 AM   #9
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRietz View Post
Casey,

First things first - screw you for owning that Record 28h hub. :drool:

i payed a lot but it looks like they go for quite a bit more now. i gave up finding the matching front. the slimmer standard axle hub will look better at the end of a thin steel fork anyway...

Second - your build looks great for your weight. DT Rev spokes are fantastic, and I used them around my entire rear wheel as well as alloy nipples to go for a truly light set up. However, based on the fact that you power around on 180mm cranks, I'd say keep the Competitions on the drive side.

that is where i am leaning alloy nipples but brass on the drive side with comp spokes

From my experience, DT outdoes Sapim by a tenfold margin in terms of quality and longevity - plus they're US-based. The only reason to go for Sapim is if you're building an aero wheel, and with 28spokes on front and rear, you're going to hit an aero block far before those spokes will have a chance to do you any good.

Third - unsure if you've built wheels before, but you DON'T need a spoke gauge. My experience with spoke gauges is that they can cause some pretty serious headaches that aren't really warranted when building a bicycle wheel.

it will be my first build from scratch

Fourth - if you were closer to me, I'd volunteer to come help you out, but I have faith that you can do this. Wheel building is fun as hell and very meditative.

Fifth - as a side note, since those wheels don't have eyelets, I think you may need some nipple washers dependent on whatever spoke you choose.

this would change my spoke length correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
This might be self evident to most, but having a real wheel truing stand makes this job immeasurably easier.
The second bit of advice is to focus on getting the wheel ROUND first - tensioning it gradually, and then deal with the lateral truing.

I don't think a tension gage is critical if you work slowly and evenly.
my dad as a decent truing stand that i have access to.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:16 AM   #10
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
I've been using Edd Spoke, Sapim Race spokes and chromed, brass nipples on several wheel builds lately and I'll use both for my next wheel build. I buy my spokes from this seller (email).
Edd Spoke was the other calculator i used. with the inputs above i got the same results as the DT swiss site. ive got screen ****s from there too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazdaspeed View Post
If they're anything like campy omega v rims they're gonna be strong. I have a set of those laced to mavic 501 hubs on my bianchi, I've taken some direct hits, crashed them, and they're still perfectly true. Anyhow it's up to you on the spokes, I dunno where you were planning on buying them from but this place probably has the best prices on sapim:

http://www.bikehubstore.com/Default.asp
i will look into both retailers, thanks
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:18 AM   #11
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
when doing a build like this do you guys often buy spare spokes? would two of each length be sufficient?
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:21 AM   #12
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,339
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
I bought one spoke extra per side of each wheel for my first couple of builds. I've never needed one during building and the last few builds I haven't ordered extra. My LBS has spokes and a threader that can get the job done in a pinch if I need one.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:23 AM   #13
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
My LBS has spokes and a threader that can get the job done in a pinch if I need one.
my LBS does have a threader but i was weary of cut vs rolled threads
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 12:28 AM   #14
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,339
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Then order a few extra. We're not talking about a lot of money here.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 01:26 AM   #15
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
more questions...

trailing spokes, where should they be? my bikes are all different.

should they be in or out on the drive side?

should the NDS be a mirror image (trailing spokes out on both non drive and drive) or should it be "copied" on the no drive side (out on the DS and in on the NDS)
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 01:33 AM   #16
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i may have answered my own question as it looks like the pros choose to put the trailing spokes on the outside of both flanges for the paris roubaix



thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 03:25 AM   #17
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.
Posts: 3,805
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Did you measure the ERD yourself? It makes a big difference. I recently built similar wheels 32F,36R Campy 10speed record Hubs, DT Swiss Competition Spokes, Mavic open pros.





Michael Angelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 09:25 AM   #18
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
Did you measure the ERD yourself? It makes a big difference.
no, two online sources list the ERD at 602mm. is there any way to verify this?
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 09:35 AM   #19
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,339
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
no, two online sources list the ERD at 602mm. is there any way to verify this?
I would trust that. But, yeah, you could measure the ERD. Remember to round down the spoke measurement to the nearest whole millimeter. Again, I really recommend reading The Bicycle Wheel before your first build. All of your questions can be answered there.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 01:33 PM   #20
Puget Pounder
Wookie Jesus inspires me.
 
Puget Pounder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I try to measure out the ERD. With Open Pros, I think I measured out an additional 2 - 3mm to whats listed on the mavic site. Something about them measuring the spoke nipple bead differently?
Puget Pounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 02:15 PM   #21
Michael Angelo 
Senior Member
 
Michael Angelo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hurricane Alley , Florida
Bikes: Treks (USA), Schwinn Paramount, Schwinn letour,Raleigh Team Professional, Gazelle GoldLine Racing, 2 Super Mondias, Carlton Professional.
Posts: 3,805
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
I did measure the Open Pros I used they were ERD 603. The tool I made is very accurate. This is the spoke calculator I used http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/. The spoke lengths were perfect.
Michael Angelo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 02:17 PM   #22
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
I did measure the Open Pros I used they were ERD 603. The tool I made is very accurate.
what are the chances you have access to a seoul 88/omega v rim

not that it manners for the build but i should also not that despite the fact i am using a non matched older front hub i did locate a matching front skewer. (as shown in your pictures) they are my favorite made.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 02:29 PM   #23
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
my LBS does have a threader but i was weary of cut vs rolled threads
If its a Phil Wood machine the spoke is cut and then threads are rolled.....I've probably cut 30-40,000 spokes on a Phil machine

Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
i may have answered my own question as it looks like the pros choose to put the trailing spokes on the outside of both flanges for the paris roubaix



I remember reading a DT or Mavic tech article way back in the day that recommended the spoke heads for the drive spokes to be on the inside of the flange.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 02:31 PM   #24
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
And...an ERD difference of +/- 2 isnt going to make and difference on a laced wheel. And a overall spoke length difference +/- 2 isnt going to make a difference either.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-11, 02:38 PM   #25
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
If its a Phil Wood machine the spoke is cut and then threads are rolled.....I've probably cut 30-40,000 spokes on a Phil machine



I remember reading a DT or Mavic tech article way back in the day that recommended the spoke heads for the drive spokes to be on the inside of the flange.
i havent seen it but i doubt it is a phil woods machine. it is a very tiny shop that doesnt do much for wheel building. i was shocked he had one as he doesnt have any frame prep tools. i also dont believe he has campagnolo cassette or chain tool

further research seems to show that european builders favor outboard trailing spokes while Americans prefer internal. prebuilt campy wheels all have outboard trailing spokes so i will stick with this model.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:52 AM.