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  1. #1
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    wheel build advice

    its been over a year since i bought the parts but i am finally ready to build my NOS wheelset. i intended to do it last year but other things occupied my time any finances (wedding, auto purchase, auto repairs)

    i ended up selling the "old" wheels so now i am committed.

    rider specs:
    6'1"
    175lbs

    bike specs:
    1996 tommasini tecno
    campagnolo alloy mix
    nice weather casual rides, centuries, charity rides

    purchased parts:
    NOS 28h chorus/athena front hub

    NOS 28h record 10 rear hub

    NOS 28h seoul 88 rims (602 ERD)


    spoke plans:
    font
    2x
    dt revolution 1.8/1.5 (or sapim cxray)

    rear
    2x
    dt competition 1.8/1.6 (or cxray) drive side
    dt revolution 1.8/1.5 (or cxray) NDS


    which of these if any do you recommend? will these be sufficiently stiff or should i go with heavier spokes?

    i used two spoke calculators and got the same results but i still wouldnt mind someone checking my work:
    Last edited by thirdgenbird; 12-31-11 at 10:39 AM. Reason: updated chart

  2. #2
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    if anyone has any overall advice for wheel builds i am all ears. am i silly for tackling this without a tension gauge?

  3. #3
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
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    Based on my research, sapim spokes come highly recommended and that's what I'm going to use when I build a set of wheels. I doubt you need heavier spokes, if the rim is strong and they're laced correctly I doubt it's a problem. The sapims are supposedly pretty strong anyway.

    This is also highly recommended: (look up reviews they're all extremely positive)

    http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

    Lastly if you feel like you need a tension gauge you can borrow mine if you want to pay for shipping there and back, I won't need it for a few weeks at least. I won a wheelsmith gauge on ebay for $20 a few months ago lol...

  4. #4
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    thanks!

    the rims are very stout. they are the same as the old omega V. here is a quote from velobase:
    Years ago Jobst Brandt did some rim stiffness tests and this rim was amongst the very best tested, exceeding that of the Zipp 808, which had just come out when Jobst was testing
    ive read good things about the cxray spokes as well but cant decide if it is worth the extra cost


    i may take you up on the tension gauge. im not sure when i will get the spoke order in but if i need it i will be in contact.

  5. #5
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    Casey,

    First things first - screw you for owning that Record 28h hub. :drool:

    Second - your build looks great for your weight. DT Rev spokes are fantastic, and I used them around my entire rear wheel as well as alloy nipples to go for a truly light set up. However, based on the fact that you power around on 180mm cranks, I'd say keep the Competitions on the drive side.

    From my experience, DT outdoes Sapim by a tenfold margin in terms of quality and longevity - plus they're US-based. The only reason to go for Sapim is if you're building an aero wheel, and with 28spokes on front and rear, you're going to hit an aero block far before those spokes will have a chance to do you any good.

    Third - unsure if you've built wheels before, but you DON'T need a spoke gauge. My experience with spoke gauges is that they can cause some pretty serious headaches that aren't really warranted when building a bicycle wheel.

    Fourth - if you were closer to me, I'd volunteer to come help you out, but I have faith that you can do this. Wheel building is fun as hell and very meditative.

    Fifth - as a side note, since those wheels don't have eyelets, I think you may need some nipple washers dependent on whatever spoke you choose.

  6. #6
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    if anyone has any overall advice for wheel builds i am all ears. am i silly for tackling this without a tension gauge?
    This might be self evident to most, but having a real wheel truing stand makes this job immeasurably easier.
    The second bit of advice is to focus on getting the wheel ROUND first - tensioning it gradually, and then deal with the lateral truing.

    I don't think a tension gage is critical if you work slowly and evenly.
    - Auchen

  7. #7
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    I've used Edd Spoke, Sapim Race spokes and chromed, brass nipples on several wheel builds lately and I'll use both for my next wheel build. I buy my spokes from this seller (email). I would build them with cross 3 lacing. I've read and found The Bicycle Wheel and recommend it.
    Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 12-30-11 at 11:15 PM.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member mazdaspeed's Avatar
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    If they're anything like campy omega v rims they're gonna be strong. I have a set of those laced to mavic 501 hubs on my bianchi, I've taken some direct hits, crashed them, and they're still perfectly true. Anyhow it's up to you on the spokes, I dunno where you were planning on buying them from but this place probably has the best prices on sapim:

    http://www.bikehubstore.com/Default.asp

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRietz View Post
    Casey,

    First things first - screw you for owning that Record 28h hub. :drool:

    i payed a lot but it looks like they go for quite a bit more now. i gave up finding the matching front. the slimmer standard axle hub will look better at the end of a thin steel fork anyway...

    Second - your build looks great for your weight. DT Rev spokes are fantastic, and I used them around my entire rear wheel as well as alloy nipples to go for a truly light set up. However, based on the fact that you power around on 180mm cranks, I'd say keep the Competitions on the drive side.

    that is where i am leaning alloy nipples but brass on the drive side with comp spokes

    From my experience, DT outdoes Sapim by a tenfold margin in terms of quality and longevity - plus they're US-based. The only reason to go for Sapim is if you're building an aero wheel, and with 28spokes on front and rear, you're going to hit an aero block far before those spokes will have a chance to do you any good.

    Third - unsure if you've built wheels before, but you DON'T need a spoke gauge. My experience with spoke gauges is that they can cause some pretty serious headaches that aren't really warranted when building a bicycle wheel.

    it will be my first build from scratch

    Fourth - if you were closer to me, I'd volunteer to come help you out, but I have faith that you can do this. Wheel building is fun as hell and very meditative.

    Fifth - as a side note, since those wheels don't have eyelets, I think you may need some nipple washers dependent on whatever spoke you choose.

    this would change my spoke length correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by auchencrow View Post
    This might be self evident to most, but having a real wheel truing stand makes this job immeasurably easier.
    The second bit of advice is to focus on getting the wheel ROUND first - tensioning it gradually, and then deal with the lateral truing.

    I don't think a tension gage is critical if you work slowly and evenly.
    my dad as a decent truing stand that i have access to.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
    I've been using Edd Spoke, Sapim Race spokes and chromed, brass nipples on several wheel builds lately and I'll use both for my next wheel build. I buy my spokes from this seller (email).
    Edd Spoke was the other calculator i used. with the inputs above i got the same results as the DT swiss site. ive got screen ****s from there too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mazdaspeed View Post
    If they're anything like campy omega v rims they're gonna be strong. I have a set of those laced to mavic 501 hubs on my bianchi, I've taken some direct hits, crashed them, and they're still perfectly true. Anyhow it's up to you on the spokes, I dunno where you were planning on buying them from but this place probably has the best prices on sapim:

    http://www.bikehubstore.com/Default.asp
    i will look into both retailers, thanks

  11. #11
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    when doing a build like this do you guys often buy spare spokes? would two of each length be sufficient?

  12. #12
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    I bought one spoke extra per side of each wheel for my first couple of builds. I've never needed one during building and the last few builds I haven't ordered extra. My LBS has spokes and a threader that can get the job done in a pinch if I need one.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
    My LBS has spokes and a threader that can get the job done in a pinch if I need one.
    my LBS does have a threader but i was weary of cut vs rolled threads

  14. #14
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    Then order a few extra. We're not talking about a lot of money here.
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  15. #15
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    more questions...

    trailing spokes, where should they be? my bikes are all different.

    should they be in or out on the drive side?

    should the NDS be a mirror image (trailing spokes out on both non drive and drive) or should it be "copied" on the no drive side (out on the DS and in on the NDS)

  16. #16
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    i may have answered my own question as it looks like the pros choose to put the trailing spokes on the outside of both flanges for the paris roubaix




  17. #17
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    Did you measure the ERD yourself? It makes a big difference. I recently built similar wheels 32F,36R Campy 10speed record Hubs, DT Swiss Competition Spokes, Mavic open pros.






  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
    Did you measure the ERD yourself? It makes a big difference.
    no, two online sources list the ERD at 602mm. is there any way to verify this?

  19. #19
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    no, two online sources list the ERD at 602mm. is there any way to verify this?
    I would trust that. But, yeah, you could measure the ERD. Remember to round down the spoke measurement to the nearest whole millimeter. Again, I really recommend reading The Bicycle Wheel before your first build. All of your questions can be answered there.
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  20. #20
    Wookie Jesus inspires me. Puget Pounder's Avatar
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    I try to measure out the ERD. With Open Pros, I think I measured out an additional 2 - 3mm to whats listed on the mavic site. Something about them measuring the spoke nipple bead differently?

  21. #21
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    I did measure the Open Pros I used they were ERD 603. The tool I made is very accurate. This is the spoke calculator I used http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/. The spoke lengths were perfect.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Angelo View Post
    I did measure the Open Pros I used they were ERD 603. The tool I made is very accurate.
    what are the chances you have access to a seoul 88/omega v rim

    not that it manners for the build but i should also not that despite the fact i am using a non matched older front hub i did locate a matching front skewer. (as shown in your pictures) they are my favorite made.

  23. #23
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    my LBS does have a threader but i was weary of cut vs rolled threads
    If its a Phil Wood machine the spoke is cut and then threads are rolled.....I've probably cut 30-40,000 spokes on a Phil machine

    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    i may have answered my own question as it looks like the pros choose to put the trailing spokes on the outside of both flanges for the paris roubaix



    I remember reading a DT or Mavic tech article way back in the day that recommended the spoke heads for the drive spokes to be on the inside of the flange.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  24. #24
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    And...an ERD difference of +/- 2 isnt going to make and difference on a laced wheel. And a overall spoke length difference +/- 2 isnt going to make a difference either.
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by miamijim View Post
    If its a Phil Wood machine the spoke is cut and then threads are rolled.....I've probably cut 30-40,000 spokes on a Phil machine



    I remember reading a DT or Mavic tech article way back in the day that recommended the spoke heads for the drive spokes to be on the inside of the flange.
    i havent seen it but i doubt it is a phil woods machine. it is a very tiny shop that doesnt do much for wheel building. i was shocked he had one as he doesnt have any frame prep tools. i also dont believe he has campagnolo cassette or chain tool

    further research seems to show that european builders favor outboard trailing spokes while Americans prefer internal. prebuilt campy wheels all have outboard trailing spokes so i will stick with this model.

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