cudak888 

https://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_schwin...nt_models.html

This page pretty much evolved from Silvercreek's '78 Paramount thread (see: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...aramount-P13-9) - for that matter, I've been meaning to put this information together for a while to begin with.

I'm still short a few photos (see list below), but most of it is there. The exact evolution of the '71 P13-9 models may be in partial question as well, but it's pretty much accurate to all the information I've documented over the years.

As for the remaining photos needed, here's a list:

• Need one side photo of a chrome-free Paramount P12 w/original components - preferably an example with a Stronglight crank
• One photo showing a pre-1971 P13-9 or a P15-9 converted to Campagnolo sidepulls; specifically, a photo showing the crossed-over rear brake cable housing.
• One photo of a pre-1978 P10-9
• One photo of the fork on a 1978 or 1979 P10-9 or P15-9; a photo suitable to show the 1-3/4" fork geometry. Silvercreek - your green '78 would be perfect here.

Enjoy.

-Kurt

Sierra

Concerning PastorBob's photo of the rear brake caliper & tire clearance on his red bike, I think it should be noted in photos like these whether the calipers are "normal" reach or "short" reach.

Thanks for all your efforts Kurt!

pastorbobnlnh 

Eric,

I'm certain mine are the long reach. They did, however, need the drop bolt to work on the '66 P-13. If Kurt would like, I can take a more straight on photo of the rear caliper, and the front for that matter, so he can have a more accurate picture.

cudak888 

I'll be covering that in a separate detail section about the P13-9 differences.

IIRC, only the standard-reach calipers will work on any conversion of a Paramount originally made for 27" rims, I believe. There may be an exception to the early '60s models, but I'm not certain.

Campagnolo never did make a long-reach Record caliper, Bob. They're considered "long reach" in comparison to modern calipers, but they're officially the standard-reach Records. Later calipers were offered with a shorter reach.

The photos of the '71 should do - in fact, I probably won't be covering later P13-9's converted to 27" rims, for the 700C conversions on the early P13's are much more common.

-Kurt

Paramount1973 

Thanks! This explains why my 1973 13-9 seemed set up for 700c wheels. I have NOS Shimano early Dura-Ace center pulls on mine and the pads are nowhere near the bottoms of the slots.

cudak888 

Yep - it's easy to tell the difference with the guide on hand - the differences just hadn't been documented until now.

-Kurt

cudak888 

Just added a photo showing the P13 v1 cable routing w/Campag sidepulls.

-Kurt

cudak888 

P.S.: I modified the site last night so 95% of the pages will show up properly on a monitor with a 1024x768 screen resolution. Feel free to point out any pages that may not work.

-Kurt

pastorbobnlnh 

Kurt,

The new page looks great. Very informative and helpful.

Sierra

If this is covered on Kurt's page, I missed it.

Here is a 1970 P13(s/n A7033) currently on ebay;

https://www.ebay.com/itm/110798287795...84.m1423.l2649

This one has no eyelets or top tube brazed on cable guides. My understanding was that these characteristics didn't start until the following year.

cudak888 

I saw Caleb's (FYI, OldSteelMachine is that shyster formerly known as Caleb8081) '70 Paramount there. I would usually call a foul on his part - knowing he has chopped and rechromed before - but I so happen to own the fork off a 1968 Paramount which has no eyelets either. I do not have an explanation for these examples yet - perhaps they were early experiments. I'd wager that if you had to put a wheelset in them, they'd fit 700C's with Campagnolo sidepulls; no drop bolt necessary.

At any rate, I'm not interested in theorizing about these until more of them show up. I need to see multiple production examples to be sure of anything.

-Kurt

cudak888 

More information:

Even though A7033 has the hallmarks of a P13-9 v2, it was made for 27" wheels. Look at the brakeset that came from the same bike (https://www.ebay.com/itm/campagnolo-n...em19cc13bc1e):



Drop bolt on the back, none on the front. That's an indication of a P13 with the older geometry running 27" wheels combined with the Campagnolo brakes.

I'll put a bet to it that A7033 had top tube cable stops at one time, and that the lack of eyelets is a coincidence.

-Kurt