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Old 01-07-12, 05:46 PM   #1
Chicago Al 
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Ding dong--deal or no deal?

A frame I am following on eBay has a noticeable (and disclosed) ding in the downtube. For those experienced with dealing with such flaws...how bad is this one? Fixable? Dealbreaker?

Thanks for any thoughts!
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Old 01-07-12, 05:48 PM   #2
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looks like more of gouge than a ding.

sure, it's fixable. but how much money are willing to pay a framebuilder to replace at least the DT and repaint the entire frame?
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Old 01-07-12, 05:50 PM   #3
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That is a common place for dents to occur, resulting from the side pull brake caliper being smacked into the down tube. Performance will most likely not be effected but it could represent a crash in the bike's past. Look at the rest of the bike, seeking signs of crash damage, or misalignment. Perhaps looking through this article on The Frame and Fork Set will assist with what to look for.

That said, a dent, regardless of where, will negatively impact the value of the bicycle.
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Old 01-07-12, 05:55 PM   #4
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You could ride it like that with no problems. However the photo looks as if the fork might be bent backwards. That ding is probably from a hard hit by a brake caliper. I would be suspicious of a front end crash. Look closely at everything.
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Old 01-07-12, 05:57 PM   #5
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^ Actually, Randy, I have to respectfully disagree: the brake caliper smack is the touched up area about 1 1/2" above the dent. I don't quite know how one gets a dent in the frame that near to the gear lever boss.

Are you going to use downtube gear levers? If so, the lever will hide the dent when you're in your smallest freewheel cog

I'd pass.

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Old 01-07-12, 05:59 PM   #6
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The location looks a little too far to have been made by a caliper. Damaged goods IMO, proceed with caution....
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Old 01-07-12, 06:12 PM   #7
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I am going off photos; as I mentioned, the bike is on eBay. In fact it's thousands of miles away.

Fork angle looks okay in photos, but something sure hit that tube pretty hard. Could even have happened in careless transporting, or a fall in a garage. In any case, replacing the DT would be nowhere on the agenda, no way, no how.

You guys are confirming my thoughts...the bike will likely not go for a price that would encourage me to take a chance on it. It's a maker that intrigues my 'gotta be different' character flaw...and it's my size. But that only goes so far.

Thanks!
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Old 01-07-12, 06:17 PM   #8
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^ Actually, Randy, I have to respectfully disagree: the brake caliper smack is the touched up area about 1 1/2" above the dent. I don't quite know how one gets a dent in the frame that near to the gear lever boss.
You could well be correct, however; to me the dent looks to be similar to this one, and others that have come my way. None the less, check the bike over carefully...

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Old 01-07-12, 06:20 PM   #9
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For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.
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Old 01-07-12, 06:30 PM   #10
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^ Agreed. Plus, there are more Zunows out there just waiting with your name on them

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Old 01-07-12, 07:20 PM   #11
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^ Close, DD, but no sigaar.... Actually, not that close either.
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Old 01-07-12, 07:46 PM   #12
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Zieleman, I meant

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Old 01-07-12, 07:59 PM   #13
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For future reference, awhile back Chuckk started a "how to" thread about rolling out tubing dents using tube blocks. His thread is HERE.
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Old 01-07-12, 08:19 PM   #14
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Thanks, Scooper! Here is Chuckk's page on that repair, with lots of pics. Food for thought, for sure. I think if I were to go that route, I'd start with a 'curb find' frame too!
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Old 01-07-12, 08:44 PM   #15
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1) Functionally or structurally, it is no big deal.

2) It is too low down on the tube to be from the brake caliper - the paint gouge above it is caliper induced damage, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.
3) ^^^ This.
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Old 01-07-12, 09:11 PM   #16
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Dings are hard to justify when looking at a frame. Even if they don't effect the performace of the frame, you'll always know it there plus it makes you question what trama caused the ding?
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Old 01-07-12, 09:14 PM   #17
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I dunno-- how many $$$$ we talking?
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Old 01-07-12, 10:58 PM   #18
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Hmmm, that same frame was on Ebay a couple of weeks ago and it then went pretty high because two bidders were competing for it.

It went for around 900$ if I remember correctly, I wonder why it is back.

The rest of the frame looks pretty minty.
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Old 01-08-12, 04:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
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looks like more of gouge than a ding.

sure, it's fixable. but how much money are willing to pay a framebuilder to replace at least the DT and repaint the entire frame?
It is clearly a "ding" and not a paint gouge or scrape. You can see in the pic that the DT has been depressed.

You can fix it and it probably doesn't affect frame strength (unlike the stress wrinkles you can see in TTs and DTs after a front-end crash). But it does look crappy...
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Old 01-08-12, 04:55 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
For me it's a deal killer - there are plenty of unmolested and wonderful bikes out there. If you ever want to sell it, the ding is going to make it difficult.
Bikes perhaps, but no Zielemans - in case someone is really hunting for that.

I have multiple frames with dents here and there. On most of them I spent substantially less however. I buy on the local market, while this frame is advertised world wide. It is a bit difficult for me to give an advise for this reason. Bummer of the dent, but if you can live with it, you're not near the source, won't sell it in future and you would deparately want a Zieleman: I could imagine someone is considering a purchase, even if it sets him/her back a substantially sum.
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Old 01-08-12, 10:54 AM   #21
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I was being cagey with the exact auction but here it is...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/170757332047...84.m1438.l2649

It is a c. 1980s frame/fork by Dutch builder Ko Zieleman. It's the second to appear on eBay recently and from the same seller. This one, despite the ding which was pictured the same way it is here, did 'sell' for over $900 a few weeks ago, a remarkable price. But now it's back. I have emailed the seller to ask what happened, which seems like a fair if perhaps embarrassing question, but have not received a response.

As Elev12K notes, it's unusual for KZ frames to turn up. I'd say especially unusual for one this small, coming from a land of tall people. So perhaps this is the only chance I'd have at one for a long time. But how much of a compromise could I live with in order to have that bike? If it were a bargain price and I could be 100% sure everything else was fine, that's one thing. To pay top price, it had better be perfect.

ps: long as we are on the subject, both Elev12K and Lotek, Zieleman owners themselves, have been very helpful to me in considering this. Thanks guys!
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Old 01-08-12, 11:14 AM   #22
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A slightly descenting opinion regarding the ease of getting that ding out. First, the ding is in the butted end of the tube (or at least it should be as it is between the shifter bosses and the head tube). Thicker tubes don't seem to pop back as easily as thinner ones do. Further, the close proximity to the shifter bosses will like provide more resistance to poping back, and/or possibly pop the shifter boss off.

That said, it does not appear to be structural, and making the paint damage worse in an attempt to reduce the dent does not bother you, it should go fine.
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Old 01-08-12, 11:41 AM   #23
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I saw another ding in the right chainstay. More deduction, imo.
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Old 01-08-12, 11:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elev12k View Post
Bikes perhaps, but no Zielemans - in case someone is really hunting for that.

I have multiple frames with dents here and there. On most of them I spent substantially less however. I buy on the local market, while this frame is advertised world wide. It is a bit difficult for me to give an advise for this reason. Bummer of the dent, but if you can live with it, you're not near the source, won't sell it in future and you would deparately want a Zieleman: I could imagine someone is considering a purchase, even if it sets him/her back a substantially sum.
I'm not a fan of must haves, grails or particular marquees. There is always another great frame around the corner...sure, it might not be a Zielman, but with so many awesome builders out there that would not discourage me. I'd rather have an unmolested high end bike from another builder...or I'd wait for the "right" Zielman.
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Old 01-08-12, 12:26 PM   #25
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