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  1. #1
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    If you know Ordinaries.

    I don't. It's got a British headstock, the wrong rear wheel and what appears to be Columbia pedals. I browsed thousands of images and didn't see a saddle spring like that anywhere. Any ideas?


    29 282 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


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    29 285 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 283 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

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  2. #2
    Hopelessly addicted... photogravity's Avatar
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    It looks like an interesting steed... I agree about the rear wheel. It's doubtful that an alloy high flange hub would have been on an ordinary atmo. Here's to hoping that Blaise sticks his head in today and weighs in on this machine.
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  3. #3
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Anyone who rides an ordinary has a lot more guts and coordination than I do.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  4. #4
    Large Member realestvin7's Avatar
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    Schwinn Approved rear hub?
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  5. #5
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    Anyone who rides an ordinary has a lot more guts and coordination than I do.
    They are pretty easy to ride. The mounting and dismounting are the tricky parts. If you get your knee stuck under the handlebar on the upstroke, you are finished. When dismounting, you jump off the back, avoiding the meat-hook that looks like a small step on the back of the frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by realestvin7 View Post
    Schwinn Approved rear hub?
    I didn't spend much time looking at it. LOL
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

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  6. #6
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Frank, where did you pick this gem up? You do seem to find the best jewels in our area!
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  7. #7
    Senior Member catmandew52's Avatar
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    You may want to sign up here. http://www.thewheelmen.org/
    They may be able to steer you in the correct direction.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    Frank, where did you pick this gem up? You do seem to find the best jewels in our area!
    It doesn't belong to me though I am hopeful. I have been looking for one for a while now. I came across a velocipede in the woods in California about 25 years ago. I think about that thing once in a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandew52 View Post
    You may want to sign up here. http://www.thewheelmen.org/
    They may be able to steer you in the correct direction.
    I am a member as well as a member of Veterans Cycle Club. The two times I have ridden these bicycles were due to the generosity of Wheelmen members. It's a big deal considering the pedals run around $500/pr.
    Last edited by ftwelder; 01-09-12 at 05:47 PM.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

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    Ordinary bike.

    Judging by the shallow dropped bars and the fairly simple front wheel bearings, I'd guess that this is a machine from the early 1880s which has had both wheels replaced or re-spoked.
    The rear wheel is clearly a (relatively) very modern replacement, and it's not uncommon to find these bikes with a totally replaced rear wheel, as the stresses imposed on them can be very considerable.
    The front wheel appears to have it's original hub, which would almost certainly have been radially-spoked originally - the 'hairpin'-type tangental spokes are accomodated in holes drilled into the base of the flanges, which is something that I've never seen in 'original' tangent wheels. I suspect that you'll find evidence of the original threaded spoke holes drilled into the edges of the flanges.
    The spring is a typical version of Harrington's Arab Cradle pattern, which was available in c.1885 in various configurations to suit both bicycles and tricycles (and, later, solid-tyred safeties), and this would probably have replaced an earlier leaf spring - there might be evidence of the fitting of some sort of bracket on the backbone, to encompass the 'tail' of such a spring, and the remains of it's original attachment at the head is evident in the close-up picture.

  10. #10
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    Is the backbone supposed to be touching the front wheel?

    I saw a guy riding one once going over Donner Pass in California, it was snowing and there he was powering up the hill eastbound on the shoulder of the freeway. I've wanted one ever since, even before that, but I've heard the newer ones don't match up to the older ones unless you pay a very pretty penny. There's a group who ride them around the Milwaukee WI area.
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  11. #11
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony colegrave View Post
    Judging by the shallow dropped bars and the fairly simple front wheel bearings, I'd guess that this is a machine from the early 1880s which has had both wheels replaced or re-spoked.
    The rear wheel is clearly a (relatively) very modern replacement, and it's not uncommon to find these bikes with a totally replaced rear wheel, as the stresses imposed on them can be very considerable.
    The front wheel appears to have it's original hub, which would almost certainly have been radially-spoked originally - the 'hairpin'-type tangental spokes are accomodated in holes drilled into the base of the flanges, which is something that I've never seen in 'original' tangent wheels. I suspect that you'll find evidence of the original threaded spoke holes drilled into the edges of the flanges.
    The spring is a typical version of Harrington's Arab Cradle pattern, which was available in c.1885 in various configurations to suit both bicycles and tricycles (and, later, solid-tyred safeties), and this would probably have replaced an earlier leaf spring - there might be evidence of the fitting of some sort of bracket on the backbone, to encompass the 'tail' of such a spring, and the remains of it's original attachment at the head is evident in the close-up picture.
    Thank you sir, I should have the bike in my hands tomorrow..I was told the hub may be bronze and have two rows of ball bearings? The closest thing I have seen to this bike is a Surrey Machinist' that was said to be equipped with BSA components though I am not sure as I have a few Surrey machines in catalogs and none looked like this.

    The guy who rebuilt this machine 20 years ago rolled that rear rim down from a 700C. The wheel on the bike as he received it was from a garden cart or something, not a bike wheel.

    I found a ton of new information (for me) searching that saddle brand. Thank you again.

    I will report back on my findings tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by treebound View Post
    Is the backbone supposed to be touching the front wheel?

    I saw a guy riding one once going over Donner Pass in California, it was snowing and there he was powering up the hill eastbound on the shoulder of the freeway. I've wanted one ever since, even before that, but I've heard the newer ones don't match up to the older ones unless you pay a very pretty penny. There's a group who ride them around the Milwaukee WI area.
    HA! No one said bent fork! Well, you almost did..

    I only have 15 mins of saddle time total for my life. At this point it's still pretty frightening.
    Last edited by ftwelder; 01-10-12 at 07:05 PM.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

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  12. #12
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
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  13. #13
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
    If you're not scared, you don't get it.
    I got it.


    29 311 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 312 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 313 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 322 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 323 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


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    29 337 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 345 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


    29 346 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  14. #14
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    If the 'hairpin'-type tangental spokes are original to the front wheel, this cycle could well be a Surrey Machinist's one, as they were just about the only successful proponents of this style of wheelbuilding.
    I've looked through the various issues of Griffin's 'Bicycles of the Year' publications, and have found an illustration of the S.M. 1885 Invincible Roadster which shows a remarkable similarity to this cycle - even being fitted with the Arab Cradle spring as standard!
    Surrey Machinist cycles are amongst the most highly regarded models of the period. The wheels were customarily fitted with an unusual pattern of hollow rim of exceptional strength (which no doubt helped to overcome the perceived defect of their spoking system), but it's not clear from the photos whether the rim on this wheel is one such.

  15. #15
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Interesting...and congratulations on the acquisition of another project

    I have access to a repro Ordinary that I occasionally borrow to ride at the local Dickens Festival.

    Curiosity question, is that rust pimples under the paint or has some misguided person sand blasted it in the past?

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  16. #16
    Senior Member blaise_f's Avatar
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    I've been away from BF for a little bit - busy with leather and life - but saw your posts on The Wheelmen. Mid / early 80s. Obviously Euro, probably English, as you've already discerned. Looks to be spider laced spokes? The bars don't look to thread out, is that right? That could mean a bit earlier than later. Columbia pedals isn't a shock. Pedals were a very often swapped item. Feet of the 1880s were small, and typical pedals didn't fit a larger person. They also wore out, and were easily replaced. It could be that it was made in the US or imported here, without the pedals (a common-ish thing for Victor bikes). What's the deal with the pant guard? Does it look like the two bars ever connected? From the discussion over yonder, it seems to me it could easily be a Surrey one off, or non-typical build of theirs. There's a lot of information from that time that we have lost as time has gone by.

    I like the bike a lot. Unique touches.




    Aaron: It's likely this bike has been blasted and repainted, which is where the pitting comes from. Casts back then weren't amazing anyway, though.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaise_f View Post
    I've been away from BF for a little bit - busy with leather and life - but saw your posts on The Wheelmen. Mid / early 80s. Obviously Euro, probably English, as you've already discerned. Looks to be spider laced spokes? The bars don't look to thread out, is that right? That could mean a bit earlier than later. Columbia pedals isn't a shock. Pedals were a very often swapped item. Feet of the 1880s were small, and typical pedals didn't fit a larger person. They also wore out, and were easily replaced. It could be that it was made in the US or imported here, without the pedals (a common-ish thing for Victor bikes). What's the deal with the pant guard? Does it look like the two bars ever connected? From the discussion over yonder, it seems to me it could easily be a Surrey one off, or non-typical build of theirs. There's a lot of information from that time that we have lost as time has gone by.

    I like the bike a lot. Unique touches.




    Aaron: It's likely this bike has been blasted and repainted, which is where the pitting comes from. Casts back then weren't amazing anyway, though.
    Thanks! The frame seems to have some original paint. The guy who last had it is my new hero. He just painted over the old paint (what little hadn't been lost to rust) with red with black being the original color. I also learned that when the bike was found, had cloth-covered spokes also. The rim looks to be the same as the Surrey Invincible on wheelmen.

    Parts of the bike were extremely rusty and pitted. It had been in a basement with the rim submerged in mud, resulting in a piece being spliced in to replace the missing section.

    The handlebars have a hex on the end that connects to the stem. I didn't see threads however.

    The pant guard seems to be unmolested and two separate rods. There is not much room between the tire and frame.

    I wonder how difficult it will be to fine about 12" of 120 year old steel rim?

    That big ole' bronze hub is sure pretty AND I have tire spook part of the brake. Ill bet I will find a handle under the floorboards in my shop?
    Last edited by ftwelder; 01-12-12 at 03:11 AM.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  18. #18
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Frank! Wow! I need to schedule a visit next week. I need to see this baby in person!

    It's interesting how in this era the frame tube was joined to the head tube with this flat piece. Below is the 1892 Coventry Safety I found at the Stump Dump.



    And here is your Ordinary. Different design but similar technique.



    Of course the tubing on these old beauties was really thick! I guess this made for the strongest joint? If you had been on C&V when I found this, I might have kept it or worked a deal with you and Laney.

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  19. #19
    Senior Member blaise_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftwelder View Post
    Thanks! The frame seems to have some original paint. The guy who last had it is my new hero. He just painted over the old paint (what little hadn't been lost to rust) with red with black being the original color. I also learned that when the bike was found, had cloth-covered spokes also. The rim looks to be the same as the Surrey Invincible on wheelmen.

    Parts of the bike were extremely rusty and pitted. It had been in a basement with the rim submerged in mud, resulting in a piece being spliced in to replace the missing section.

    The handlebars have a hex on the end that connects to the stem. I didn't see threads however.

    The pant guard seems to be unmolested and two separate rods. There is not much room between the tire and frame.

    I wonder how difficult it will be to fine about 12" of 120 year old steel rim?

    That big ole' bronze hub is sure pretty AND I have tire spook part of the brake. Ill bet I will find a handle under the floorboards in my shop?
    Custom-fab is going to be your quickest route. A whole wheel comes up for sale maybe once a year. Trashed rims generally disappear, though I've seen parts bikes with feet of rim missing; anything is possible. 19th century bike stuff comes down to two categories (when restoring them): 1) Riders, 2) Originals. A rider would get any old brake setup and rim slapped on - this can be done on the quick. An original could take your whole life to find replacement parts.

    The pant guard is interesting to me, as with many details on this bike. It's really a great find. A tiny bit will get it riding. A whole new world exists behind the door of ordinaries
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  20. #20
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    I have this weird kind of luck when it comes to finding bikes. Someone gave me a complete set of Whitworth tools, then a few weeks later, my first Rudge showed up. I found a old wood box of Torrington spokes and weeks later, the Nashua came to stay and needed spokes and I had a box of originals in the correct size.

    I knew when the truck backed up to my door with a 100 year old, 3,000 lb, (rim) rolling machine, I had to accept it (it's 1/2 the size of a car). The message I am getting from this machine "forget buying a rim, prepare to make one, I am your new friend".
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

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    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  21. #21
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ftwelder View Post
    I have this weird kind of luck when it comes to finding bikes. Someone gave me a complete set of Whitworth tools, then a few weeks later, my first Rudge showed up. I found a old wood box of Torrington spokes and weeks later, the Nashua came to stay and needed spokes and I had a box of originals in the correct size.

    I knew when the truck backed up to my door with a 100 year old, 3,000 lb, (rim) rolling machine, I had to accept it (it's 1/2 the size of a car). The message I am getting from this machine "forget buying a rim, prepare to make one, I am your new friend".
    You are, The bike whisperer!

    Frank, I had a premonition yesterday that you would fabricate your own replacement rim.

    When you first ride it, I want to be there with my video camera so we can post a video here. We just need to make certain we find you a period correct costume to wear. One cool shot would be the local BMX kids riding circles around you as you stately go down main street. Another would be to take it across the river into NH and film you with the old railroad cars in the background.
    Bob
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  22. #22
    Cisalpinist Italuminium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    You are, The bike whisperer!

    Frank, I had a premonition yesterday that you would fabricate your own replacement rim.

    When you first ride it, I want to be there with my video camera so we can post a video here. We just need to make certain we find you a period correct costume to wear. One cool shot would be the local BMX kids riding circles around you as you stately go down main street. Another would be to take it across the river into NH and film you with the old railroad cars in the background.
    Looking forward to that film!
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  23. #23
    Senior Member blaise_f's Avatar
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    So you have your confirmation.

    The boys on the other side of the pond say Surrey Machinists Co Invincible
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  24. #24
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    You are, The bike whisperer!

    Frank, I had a premonition yesterday that you would fabricate your own replacement rim.

    When you first ride it, I want to be there with my video camera so we can post a video here. We just need to make certain we find you a period correct costume to wear. One cool shot would be the local BMX kids riding circles around you as you stately go down main street. Another would be to take it across the river into NH and film you with the old railroad cars in the background.
    It's not all that easy to get one one of the things and get going. I am actually going to train for the occasion. The peg is about knee height and I can just reach the bars. I am not sure about the camera and costume but you can come by and spot me, I will need two people. I mounted a 56" a couple of times but the first would have been a crash without a spotter. This old girl is a 58".

    Quote Originally Posted by blaise_f View Post
    So you have your confirmation.

    Thanks! I am just gushing right now.
    Last edited by ftwelder; 01-13-12 at 08:02 PM.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Mishawaka Indiana
    My Bikes
    1985 & 1986 Schwinn Peloton, 1986 Schwinn Super Sport, 1985 Schwinn Super Le Tour, 1973 silver Schwinn P13 Pamanount 1972 Chrome Schwinn P13 Paramount
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    Very interesting machine. It always makes me wonder what people 130 yrs from now will have to ride from now.

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