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  1. #1
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Huge tear/crack in Kogswell downtube (photo on Bicycle Quarterly's site)



    From: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/0...nsive-bicycle/

    I've never seen anything like it on a steel frame. Anyone have a backstory on it?

    Improper heat treating, perhaps?

    -Kurt

  2. #2
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    I dunno, but given that you haven't seen anything like that, and I bet most people haven't, it's a terrible photo to use to argue that more expensive bikes are more "durable" than less expensive ones.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    That's steel? Certainly not from just riding around...

    Reading most of the posts, I'm not sure what they're trying to say with that photo.
    Last edited by dbakl; 01-10-12 at 05:00 PM.

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    Giant Member -holiday76's Avatar
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    Oh that one? It belongs to Edward Scissorhands.
    Mmmm, bicycles.

    I prefer emails to private messages - holiday76@gmail.com

  5. #5
    Senior Member john hawrylak's Avatar
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    I posted a reply on the BQ site, saying the photo was a mis representation and Heine should have blotted out the name. HE stated he did not the failure mechanism. How can you post such a thing without knowing. I thought journalists checked out there stories before printing.

    His original blog bordered on bragging about his custom, versus educating every one. He should have just stated a few reasons we could all agree why a custom is a better choice (pick exact tubing, get exact fit, etc) versus trying to justify a + $5,000 bike by showing such pictures, and stating his hand picked components are somehow inherently superior to all others.

    Who would spend $400 for one of his Rene Herse cranks, which BTW are made in the Taiwan, the source of the cheap, production bike, he discusses.

    John Hawrylak
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    Kogswell is dead, so who cares about a tubing failure.
    John Hawrylak
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  6. #6
    Wookie Jesus inspires me. Puget Pounder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john hawrylak View Post
    I posted a reply on the BQ site, saying the photo was a mis representation and Heine should have blotted out the name. HE stated he did not the failure mechanism. How can you post such a thing without knowing. I thought journalists checked out there stories before printing.

    His original blog bordered on bragging about his custom, versus educating every one. He should have just stated a few reasons we could all agree why a custom is a better choice (pick exact tubing, get exact fit, etc) versus trying to justify a + $5,000 bike by showing such pictures, and stating his hand picked components are somehow inherently superior to all others.

    Who would spend $400 for one of his Rene Herse cranks, which BTW are made in the Taiwan, the source of the cheap, production bike, he discusses.

    John Hawrylak
    Woodstown NJ


    Kogswell is dead, so who cares about a tubing failure.
    I agree with this 100%. I thought that post was ridiculous.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    It's ridiculous generalizations like that on the article that messed up biking as we knew it. These guys just want every new biker to believe that the only way you can have an enjoyable, reliable ride is to spend like crazy......and yeah, make sure your new steel bike was touched by a "constructeur master builder"....... Can I puke now?

    Chombi

  8. #8
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    I think Kogswell had two different choices of downtube, or perhaps a constructive error. One that several owners agreed was too light, and another that was a considerably stiffer ride. I don't know enough to say which one this could have been. If I'm right, I can't really see what Jan's point might have been, other than sensationalism. since he loves thin-wall tubes of small diameter.

    But perhaps Kogswell didn't go for a heat-treated tube, as Cuda suggests. If it was a 7/4/7 with 28.6 diameter, it's way thinner than the 50:1 beer-canning criterion. The compensating factor is to get a higher yield strength by heat-treating, choice of different alloy, or other higher-strength option.

  9. #9
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
    It's ridiculous generalizations like that on the article that messed up biking as we knew it. These guys just want every new biker to believe that the only way you can have an enjoyable, reliable ride is to spend like crazy......and yeah, make sure your new steel bike was touched by a "constructeur master builder"....... Can I puke now?

    Chombi
    I didn't get any of that from his blog post. What is wrong with pointing out what you would get from a custom build, especially if you have been through the process of finally settling on a specific custom bike?

    The production bike is a fine machine that will make many cyclists happy. So what does the hand-made high-end bike offer that justifies its price? From my experience, the extra money buys you improvements in three areas:
    This quote is from that blog post. This doesn't seem to me that he is spouting off about how the only way to have fun on a bike is to spend like crazy.
    "Rivendells do not rock; they jamboree."

    "A lot of bike people are clench-sphinctered uptite-a-saurauses. Just about anything puts their lil bibs in an unsafety-like twist"

    "Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.

  10. #10
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    So that's not a "roof rack vs. garage" break?

  11. #11
    Curmudgeon in Training 20grit's Avatar
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    That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.

  12. #12
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

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  13. #13
    Hopelessly addicted... photogravity's Avatar
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    It would be really helpful to have the back story on what caused the break. I'm doubting that in the normal course of riding, that a steel frame bike would fail like that. There had to have been an "event" outside of normal riding that would have led to a break like the one in his picture atmo.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    maybe a cross post in framebuilders...... the break is very interesting.... you see a small dent on L of Kogswell. Maybe some sort of lateral force?
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  15. #15
    Hopelessly addicted... photogravity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
    That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.
    Based on what I see, there is metal on the bottom of the tube in the left edge of the picture, then on the right edge of the tear perhaps there is still some metal that is on the back of the tube that is still connecting the broken section. I think that as Tom says, they may have manipulated the frame a bit to "enhance" and therefore dramatize the tear in the tube.
    --
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Drillium Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
    That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension...
    Maybe the rider was built like a gorilla, reached down to pull his water bottle for a drink...

    DD
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  17. #17
    Can'tre Member 3alarmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
    That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.
    this was also my first impression. Looks like some of the stuff we used
    to see and play around with in materials lab with the cool destructive
    testing equipment. I cannot imagine how you could do that to a bike
    tube while riding it.....I guess anything is possible, but still ???

    If anything, they usually crack or fold or crease.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat
    Only a few find the way, some don't recognize it when they do - some... don't ever want to.

  18. #18
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
    In other words, the picture is BOGUS.
    Please email me rather than sending me a private message. My address is noglider@pobox.com

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  19. #19
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
    I have enough experience in that field to say that it's highly, highly unlikely that this photo has been post-processed in a computer editing suite. That damage exists.

    -Kurt

  20. #20
    I'm doing it wrong. RJM's Avatar
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    My bet is that something hit the tube, like a rather large rock, or it happened when the bike was crashed. Anything could happen in a crash.
    "Rivendells do not rock; they jamboree."

    "A lot of bike people are clench-sphinctered uptite-a-saurauses. Just about anything puts their lil bibs in an unsafety-like twist"

    "Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Michael Angelo's Avatar
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    Bike polo impact

  22. #22
    Senior Member john hawrylak's Avatar
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    Jan Heine stated this in a reply to the blog showing the Kogswell down tube failure

    “It appears to be a tubing defect. I think the bike was a repaint. The owner likes the bike, so they had the broken tube replaced. The builder reported that there wasn’t much braze in the joint between down tube and BB shell. So if the tube hadn’t failed, the joint probably would not have lasted very long, either. It’s not particular to this (now-defunct) brand – many other Taiwanese frames are made in the same factory.”

    So the failure was real. However, the blog reply has more speculation than facts and has no facts on the failure, other than an oblivious tubing failure due to an unspecified failure mechanism.. It’s easy for the builder doing a low margin repair to say the joint was not good and blame it on the Taiwanese.

    In the KOG message board on Yahoo, Matthew Grimm provided the following details of the tubing used for Kogswell in replay to questions (edited for conciseness)

    “The P/R G2+ frames had 28.6 x 9/6/9 down tubes, which, in my book, makes
    them standard.

    The D and F and G models were OS 9/6/9.

    The P was OS 8/5/8.

    The P/R was standard 9/6/9. For the P/R I just used the SL profiles and shortened the butts to 30mm.”

    So the tube could be OS or Std depending on the model which Jan did not specify.
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  23. #23
    www.theheadbadge.com cudak888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john hawrylak, quoting Jan Heine View Post
    It appears to be a tubing defect. I think the bike was a repaint. The owner likes the bike, so they had the broken tube replaced. The builder reported that there wasn’t much braze in the joint between down tube and BB shell. So if the tube hadn’t failed, the joint probably would not have lasted very long, either.
    Red herring fallacy. The brazing at the BB would have no bearing on a crack in the center of the downtube.

    -Kurt

  24. #24
    Senior Member mudboy's Avatar
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    Somewhat moot point, as Kogswell is out of business.
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  25. #25
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
    Red herring fallacy. The brazing at the BB would have no bearing on a crack in the center of the downtube.

    -Kurt
    Is it a red herring or is it a fallacy?

    Anyway, read the quote again. He's not saying the lack of brazing caused the failure.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

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