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Old 01-10-12, 05:47 PM   #1
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Huge tear/crack in Kogswell downtube (photo on Bicycle Quarterly's site)



From: http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/0...nsive-bicycle/

I've never seen anything like it on a steel frame. Anyone have a backstory on it?

Improper heat treating, perhaps?

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Old 01-10-12, 05:49 PM   #2
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I dunno, but given that you haven't seen anything like that, and I bet most people haven't, it's a terrible photo to use to argue that more expensive bikes are more "durable" than less expensive ones.
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Old 01-10-12, 05:53 PM   #3
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That's steel? Certainly not from just riding around...

Reading most of the posts, I'm not sure what they're trying to say with that photo.

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Old 01-10-12, 06:12 PM   #4
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Oh that one? It belongs to Edward Scissorhands.
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Old 01-10-12, 06:20 PM   #5
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I posted a reply on the BQ site, saying the photo was a mis representation and Heine should have blotted out the name. HE stated he did not the failure mechanism. How can you post such a thing without knowing. I thought journalists checked out there stories before printing.

His original blog bordered on bragging about his custom, versus educating every one. He should have just stated a few reasons we could all agree why a custom is a better choice (pick exact tubing, get exact fit, etc) versus trying to justify a + $5,000 bike by showing such pictures, and stating his hand picked components are somehow inherently superior to all others.

Who would spend $400 for one of his Rene Herse cranks, which BTW are made in the Taiwan, the source of the cheap, production bike, he discusses.

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Kogswell is dead, so who cares about a tubing failure.
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Old 01-10-12, 06:24 PM   #6
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I posted a reply on the BQ site, saying the photo was a mis representation and Heine should have blotted out the name. HE stated he did not the failure mechanism. How can you post such a thing without knowing. I thought journalists checked out there stories before printing.

His original blog bordered on bragging about his custom, versus educating every one. He should have just stated a few reasons we could all agree why a custom is a better choice (pick exact tubing, get exact fit, etc) versus trying to justify a + $5,000 bike by showing such pictures, and stating his hand picked components are somehow inherently superior to all others.

Who would spend $400 for one of his Rene Herse cranks, which BTW are made in the Taiwan, the source of the cheap, production bike, he discusses.

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Kogswell is dead, so who cares about a tubing failure.
I agree with this 100%. I thought that post was ridiculous.
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Old 01-10-12, 06:24 PM   #7
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It's ridiculous generalizations like that on the article that messed up biking as we knew it. These guys just want every new biker to believe that the only way you can have an enjoyable, reliable ride is to spend like crazy......and yeah, make sure your new steel bike was touched by a "constructeur master builder"....... Can I puke now?

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Old 01-10-12, 06:47 PM   #8
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I think Kogswell had two different choices of downtube, or perhaps a constructive error. One that several owners agreed was too light, and another that was a considerably stiffer ride. I don't know enough to say which one this could have been. If I'm right, I can't really see what Jan's point might have been, other than sensationalism. since he loves thin-wall tubes of small diameter.

But perhaps Kogswell didn't go for a heat-treated tube, as Cuda suggests. If it was a 7/4/7 with 28.6 diameter, it's way thinner than the 50:1 beer-canning criterion. The compensating factor is to get a higher yield strength by heat-treating, choice of different alloy, or other higher-strength option.
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Old 01-10-12, 06:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
It's ridiculous generalizations like that on the article that messed up biking as we knew it. These guys just want every new biker to believe that the only way you can have an enjoyable, reliable ride is to spend like crazy......and yeah, make sure your new steel bike was touched by a "constructeur master builder"....... Can I puke now?

Chombi
I didn't get any of that from his blog post. What is wrong with pointing out what you would get from a custom build, especially if you have been through the process of finally settling on a specific custom bike?

Quote:
The production bike is a fine machine that will make many cyclists happy. So what does the hand-made high-end bike offer that justifies its price? From my experience, the extra money buys you improvements in three areas:
This quote is from that blog post. This doesn't seem to me that he is spouting off about how the only way to have fun on a bike is to spend like crazy.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:19 PM   #10
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So that's not a "roof rack vs. garage" break?
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Old 01-10-12, 07:31 PM   #11
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That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:33 PM   #12
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Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:33 PM   #13
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It would be really helpful to have the back story on what caused the break. I'm doubting that in the normal course of riding, that a steel frame bike would fail like that. There had to have been an "event" outside of normal riding that would have led to a break like the one in his picture atmo.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:37 PM   #14
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maybe a cross post in framebuilders...... the break is very interesting.... you see a small dent on L of Kogswell. Maybe some sort of lateral force?
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Old 01-10-12, 07:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.
Based on what I see, there is metal on the bottom of the tube in the left edge of the picture, then on the right edge of the tear perhaps there is still some metal that is on the back of the tube that is still connecting the broken section. I think that as Tom says, they may have manipulated the frame a bit to "enhance" and therefore dramatize the tear in the tube.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension...
Maybe the rider was built like a gorilla, reached down to pull his water bottle for a drink...

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Old 01-10-12, 07:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20grit View Post
That break is in a near spiral. I can't think of any normal impact that would cause it to nearly unravel. It would have to be under some serious tension and have a physical defect to do that. Or at least I think that's the case.
this was also my first impression. Looks like some of the stuff we used
to see and play around with in materials lab with the cool destructive
testing equipment. I cannot imagine how you could do that to a bike
tube while riding it.....I guess anything is possible, but still ???

If anything, they usually crack or fold or crease.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:49 PM   #18
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Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
In other words, the picture is BOGUS.
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Old 01-10-12, 07:52 PM   #19
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Some people can tell when a picture has been manipulated. I can't, but I suspect it in this case.
I have enough experience in that field to say that it's highly, highly unlikely that this photo has been post-processed in a computer editing suite. That damage exists.

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Old 01-10-12, 08:13 PM   #20
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My bet is that something hit the tube, like a rather large rock, or it happened when the bike was crashed. Anything could happen in a crash.
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Old 01-10-12, 08:16 PM   #21
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Bike polo impact
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Old 01-10-12, 08:48 PM   #22
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Jan Heine stated this in a reply to the blog showing the Kogswell down tube failure

“It appears to be a tubing defect. I think the bike was a repaint. The owner likes the bike, so they had the broken tube replaced. The builder reported that there wasn’t much braze in the joint between down tube and BB shell. So if the tube hadn’t failed, the joint probably would not have lasted very long, either. It’s not particular to this (now-defunct) brand – many other Taiwanese frames are made in the same factory.”

So the failure was real. However, the blog reply has more speculation than facts and has no facts on the failure, other than an oblivious tubing failure due to an unspecified failure mechanism.. It’s easy for the builder doing a low margin repair to say the joint was not good and blame it on the Taiwanese.

In the KOG message board on Yahoo, Matthew Grimm provided the following details of the tubing used for Kogswell in replay to questions (edited for conciseness)

“The P/R G2+ frames had 28.6 x 9/6/9 down tubes, which, in my book, makes
them standard.

The D and F and G models were OS 9/6/9.

The P was OS 8/5/8.

The P/R was standard 9/6/9. For the P/R I just used the SL profiles and shortened the butts to 30mm.”

So the tube could be OS or Std depending on the model which Jan did not specify.
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Old 01-10-12, 08:59 PM   #23
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It appears to be a tubing defect. I think the bike was a repaint. The owner likes the bike, so they had the broken tube replaced. The builder reported that there wasn’t much braze in the joint between down tube and BB shell. So if the tube hadn’t failed, the joint probably would not have lasted very long, either.
Red herring fallacy. The brazing at the BB would have no bearing on a crack in the center of the downtube.

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Old 01-10-12, 09:15 PM   #24
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Somewhat moot point, as Kogswell is out of business.
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Old 01-10-12, 09:54 PM   #25
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Red herring fallacy. The brazing at the BB would have no bearing on a crack in the center of the downtube.

-Kurt
Is it a red herring or is it a fallacy?

Anyway, read the quote again. He's not saying the lack of brazing caused the failure.
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