photogravity

+1 or a Mooney.

KonAaron Snake 

Yep - or a Mooney.

unterhausen

I'm glad to see Jan Heine now taking an active role in supplying the kind of parts that he advocates. Someone compared him to VO, and while it's nice to have a company like VO, Jan is the kind of perfectionist that will make parts that are of much higher quality. So what if he goes after the retro market? Let everyone else take care of the new stuff, Jan will supply the stuff that was only rejected because it wasn't the latest fad, not because it outlived its usefulness.

rootboy 

OK. My mistake. I don't know anything about Colnagos. But I would say that if it is still the original company, more or less, and they're still making bikes, then those bikes are Colnagos I suppose. I don't know their history. I do feel, however, that a bike that says Rene Herse on the down tube is not one if it didn't come out his his shop. At least, not an authentic one. If that's the case, and it might not be, what's the motivation behind hand painting that name on a frame? I know, of course. Now, it's just a great name painted on a bike. A nice bike, but it's not a Rene Herse. That's just an opinion, of course.

KonAaron Snake 

I don't know...is a Hetchins still a Hetchins? If they're replicating the bikes closely and own the name...I'm fine with it. Rolls Royce didn't change their name to Fred after Royce died. Herse is a brand...it says high quality, custom constructeur built in a certain way. I'm fine with the brand changing hands but the name staying.

iab

For me, a brand is just a brand. Physically, a modern CF Colnago made in Taiwan has nothing in common with a steel one made in 1960. Except of course they are both bikes and both say Colnago on the side. And the meaning of that name has changed over the years.

But that is easy to write because Colnago, Cinelli, Bianchi, etc are, and were, all mass-produced bikes. With RH you could have a point because it was an artisan bike. (Or not, I don't know much about French stuff). A Peter Weigle is that because his brand is all about the artisan-built custom bike. He is the brand. Rene Herse could be similar, but I always thought of them more as a very-high quality production bike. Custom may have been an option, but I thought you could buy one off the rack.

AZORCH

+1

KonAaron Snake 

I THOUGHT they were all, or at least almost all, custom. What makes RH a brand to me is just that other people still use it. What I mean is...right now, Weigle is Weigle. Weigle makes Weigle bikes. If Weigle eventually sells his name, or if his kids now make the bikes, Weigle is a brand. There is a difference between the Weigle brand bikes and the Weigle made bikes, but I'd be fine with a Weigle brand that used his name in order to advertise the parts of Weigle the builder they are replicating.

rootboy 

I don't know much about them either. I think you could walk in to R. Herse cycles and buy one off the rack though. If he had one. Not sure. I think the broader point is the artisan aspect. Now, if the bikes made by Boulder Cycle said somewhere on the frame. "made under licensing agreement with the Herse estate", or something like that, I'd have to retract my argument against them. Maybe they do. I've never seen one.

ColonelJLloyd 

Well, I'm no lawyer, but I reckon if they said something to that effect it would be more like "made under licensing agreement with Compass Bicycles" as it's Compass who now owns the Rene Herse Bicycles name. I gather Lyli sold it completely.

AZORCH

Yes, if you read the blog you'll see that Lyli sold the name and remaining assets. Those have both been purchased by Jan. Love it or hate it, the brand will continue.

rootboy 

That is an interesting point. You mention his kids. What if the name Weigle got sold by his kids to someone else and they make bikes under Peter's name. Even with the blessing of the kids and a legal document. Are those bikes Weigles? Well, I suppose they are. But not "genuine" Weigles, to my mind. That said, there's lots of examples. But unless it came out of Maranello, from his factory, it isn't a Ferrari. Unless is was made by Carol Shelby, it isn't an AC Shelby Cobra. Etc. These are artisanal cars, much like a Herse bike. A Rolls Royce was always made in the RR factories, wasn't it? Even after Mr. Royce died. When Rene Herse died, I believe true Herse bikes died with him. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Mike and Jan are trying to preserve the legacy of the great French builder. Maybe if the bike said "R. Herse by Compass Cycles" on it .....

lonesomesteve

My apologies for butchering Lyli's name. Yes, I was aware of her experience as a rider and her involvement with her father's bicycles when I posted my comments above.

Jan is no slouch of a rider himself and has devoted years to carefully analyzing and reporting on the best bikes built in the style of the French constructeurs. He may not be a talented framebuilder and constructeur (which is no doubt why he's leaving that to Boulder Bicycles) but I still think he probably knows as much as anyone alive (including Lyli Herse) about what characteristics make a René Herse bicycle a René Herse bicycle.

Picchio Special

Of course, Hetchins never personally built the bikes that bore his name. Jack Denny did a lot of the work, but not all of it. This discussion has veered really into the question of the difference between a one-person shop, a small-production, closely tended shop, and a shop that does some carefully supervised outsourcing. Examples of each have been introduced into this thread. They're all valid, and I think in each case, I'm personally OK with the brand name changing hands. It's whether it's true to a tradition of excellence or a particular perspective that matters most. But at the same time, if the connection gets lost or broken, some of the appeal of a particular brand gets lost on me, unless there's some specific aspect of the bicycles themselves that I think is distinctive and adds something to the tradition of excellence. I think Mr. Columbo to some extent managed to do that with Cinelli. The question is how much appeal does the name have just as a name, and how much historical resonance remains with it. If the history is still there, I'm in. If not, I'm going to go by the bikes, in which case, I'd as soon go to Mark Nobillette and say, "Mark, build me a constructeur bike that represents your vision of one" as buy a Herse for the name.

jan nikolajsen 

I don't like it. Weird to trade a name like that.

Kone and Heine should have enough pedigree, experience, courage, whatnot, to label the bikes built by them, to the best of the standards they've learned, with their own brand name. And if indeed they are as enlightened, constructeur wise, as one come to believe from their blogs, sites, and periodicals, well then, seeing their name on the downtube, and not the name of an iconic figure from the past, would instill almost similar pride of ownership.

Or maybe they simply want to pay homage the Herse legacy, by making all the burgeoning traditionalists out there aware of the mans work and influence, and it has less to do with promoting their own line of thinking.

Picchio Special

This is a great point. If someone is merely building "tribute bikes," is the brand truly "alive?" Reification is not interesting to me, except in certain rare cases. Masi didn't stop at building great pressed-lug bikes, he was driven to develop a great IC lugged design, and then the 3V - both demonstrating imagination and a desire to keep the brand moving forward.

Picchio Special

It is in this context that I particularly regret the demise of Mariposa, as I think Mike Barry had a rather unique eye for moving the concept forward without simply replicating earlier designs and concepts.

lonesomesteve

Seems like the question of whether a René Herse bicycle built by Boulder Bicycles in 2012 is really a René Herse bicycle is purely a legal question. Assuming Jan legally owns the rights to the name and Boulder Bicycles legally licenses the name then indeed it is a René Herse bicycle.

Whether or not a René Herse bicycle built by BB in the US is as desirable as one built by René himself is purely a matter of personal taste and you can discuss that 'til the vaches come home.

Picchio Special

And we shall. Apparently.

balindamood

I like Jan.

I like alot of what he does (preachy or not, yet still thoughful and alot more honest than what Rodale press vomits out through their respective rags).

I like the components he offers, even if they are a touch pricey.

But I don't like this.

If you build a reputation for bike construction under your name, then having someone else build them in your absence seems to cheapen it to me. If he just wants the rights to the designs and is basically buying those rights via the name, then so beit. If he thinks he is going to start marketing replicas from the far east with the Rene Hearse name on them, he might as well go by Schwinn while he is at it. If you want to build a company the extend beyond your indiviual output/years, then call it Trek, Compass, whatever.

If I put un my tin-foil hat and hide in my bomb-shelter, I could conject that he is simply buying the name so no one else has the right to use it and cheapen the value of all of the other Hearse bikes running about. Sort of like Apple/Google/et al fighting over the carcus of Motorola.

rootboy 

After the bare facts are exhausted, which happens quickly, the rest IS all tastes and opinions. Hence: forums. It's all harmless fun, like pocket pool. And about as meaningful.

iab

I'm a bit under the weather and have nothing else to do.

Anyhow, here are some more of my ramblings ...

Again, I don't know much about the "original" RH, but for the sake of discussion, let's say he was a small production shop and did some custom work (I think that is somewhat accurate). What if under Jan's stewardship, he decides to change that to a purely custom shop making frames in a higher quality than the original (as good as they are, they are not as good as some of the custom work done in the US).

Jan effectively changes the brand promise, for the better. Exactly like he did with the cranks. Newer manufacturing processes simply can make a better product than from 60 years ago. Why does it matter where they were made? Why does it matter who makes them? Other than "It's not old", how does this not fulfill everything you think of when you think of the brand?

The Colonol died years ago. I still like his greasy chicken on occasion. New Coke was a colassal mistake and I prefer Mexican Coke with cane sugar instead of corn syrup. But I do like the fact that Coke tastes more or less the same in Europe as it does in in North America as it does in Asia.

753proguy

I'm with you on this! JPW is a master-issimo framebuilder (and painter, btw) in my humble opinion. Anyone who shaves tires to get more performance out of them is way, way, into it. His fabrication skills are almost unparalleled. I've toured his tiny shop - he opened it up for me on a Sunday morning, during a snowstorm - what a guy! The level of attention to detail in his framesets / bikes is off the chart, as far as I am concerned. Stunning would be an understatement. I'd rank him up there with Mr. Nagasawa, probably even higher than that.

JAG410

But Boulder Bicycles are actually made by Waterford. So Rene Herse = Rivendell?

753proguy

the automotive analogy that I would sort of make (for a genuine Herse vs. Mike's/Mark's modern Herse) is ("real") Shelby Cobras vs. Factory Five Cobras. The former is a million-Dollar collectible, too valuable to be driven very often, really, whereas the latter is an amazing, relatively faithful, but updated, eminently driveable, $50,000 replica. Of course, I own none of these four things, so what do I know?

OK, on second thought, maybe that doesn't even work. Never mind....