Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Lug Brazing Example

Search
Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Lug Brazing Example

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 01-17-12, 10:22 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Fletch521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Loves Park, Illinois
Posts: 414

Bikes: 1897 Crescent Tandem, 1904 Rambler shaft drive, 1921 Schwinn Henderson, 1958 Schwinn Tiger, 1973 Raleigh International, 1982 Trek 420, 2010 Trek 720

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lug Brazing Example

Fletch521 is offline  
Old 01-17-12, 10:57 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
JAG410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Moorhead, MN
Posts: 997

Bikes: A few ;)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
That was cool, thanks for sharing!
JAG410 is offline  
Old 01-17-12, 11:07 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
JayBlurr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Beantown
Posts: 286

Bikes: Fuji S12-S, Puegeot Tour De Monde, Maruishi Road Ace 303, Raleigh Wyoming Touring

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I asking a friend about this the other day, thanks for sharing it was educational
JayBlurr is offline  
Old 01-17-12, 11:42 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Alan Edwards's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lancaster,CA the desert north of Los Angeles
Posts: 701

Bikes: 84' Ciocc, 79' Shogun 1000, 76' KHS Gran Sport, 96' Schwinn Super Sport,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Now I need to go practice on something. Thanks for the post, every bit counts.
Alan Edwards is offline  
Old 01-17-12, 11:53 PM
  #5  
Rustbelt Rider
 
mkeller234's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Canton, OH
Posts: 9,104

Bikes: 1990 Trek 1420 - 1978 Raleigh Professional - 1973 Schwinn Collegiate - 1974 Schwinn Suburban

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Liked 372 Times in 177 Posts
The video was pretty neat. I would like to see some comments from someone here that can build frames.

I really liked the music choice... although I would have picked "with my own bare hands"
__________________
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| ||
|......GO.BROWNS........| ||'|";, ___.
|_..._..._______===|=||_|__|..., ] -
"(@)'(@)"""''"**|(@)(@)*****''(@)
mkeller234 is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 04:12 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 428

Bikes: 2003 Lemond Zurich; 1987 Schwinn Tempo; 1968 PX10; 1978 PX10LE, Peugeot Course; A-D Vent Noir

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Very nice video. BTW, it was done with silver brazing (not with brass rod). More expensive stuff, but works easier and at
a lower temp and gives a nicer result, IMHO.
neurocop is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 04:19 AM
  #7  
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Posts: 27,267

Bikes: See my sig...

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 96 Posts
Nice technique... silver is very nice to work with.
Sixty Fiver is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 08:24 AM
  #8  
Señor Member
 
4Rings6Stars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Boston Burbs
Posts: 1,637

Bikes: Bedford, IF, Hampsten, DeSalvo, Intense Carbine 27.5, Raleigh Sports, Bianchi C.u.S.S, Soma DC Disc, Bill Boston Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Cool video, thanks for that.

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
Nice technique... silver is very nice to work with.
Are you building bikes? I remember a while back seeing that you were apprenticing. I got as far as buying an oxy-acet setup and all the tubes, lugs, dropouts etc. for a frame... Once I can get some workshop space I'm anxious to start practicing brazing. I also want to lean towards fillet brazing because I like the look and the flexibility (over size / differing size tubing, strange angles, compact geo...etc). Also because I can't afford silver to practice with!
4Rings6Stars is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 09:19 AM
  #9  
Master of the Obvious
 
iTod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 95

Bikes: bridgestone mb-6, schwinn tempo

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Seems like almost the same as sweating copper pipes. Very interesting!
iTod is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 09:54 AM
  #10  
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,503

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7348 Post(s)
Liked 2,471 Times in 1,435 Posts
Originally Posted by iTod
Seems like almost the same as sweating copper pipes. Very interesting!
Yes, apparently it is. My plumber admired my McLean custom made frame. He said he enjoys wrenching on bikes more than riding them.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 11:54 AM
  #11  
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Posts: 27,267

Bikes: See my sig...

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 96 Posts
Originally Posted by 4Rings6Stars
Are you building bikes? I remember a while back seeing that you were apprenticing. I got as far as buying an oxy-acet setup and all the tubes, lugs, dropouts etc. for a frame... Once I can get some workshop space I'm anxious to start practicing brazing. I also want to lean towards fillet brazing because I like the look and the flexibility (over size / differing size tubing, strange angles, compact geo...etc). Also because I can't afford silver to practice with!
I am currently hunting for shop space so I can set up a new shop... will be working primarily with brass and will be filet brazing and would like to build some lugged frames at some point as well.

The brazing is the easier part... designing the frame and doing all the prep work is where most of the work lies and once things are ready for brazing the work tends to move along pretty quickly.

You can do silver and brass with oxy / propane... acetylene is nasty stuff and propane is more readily available.

Last edited by Sixty Fiver; 01-18-12 at 11:57 AM.
Sixty Fiver is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 02:20 PM
  #12  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,786

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3588 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times in 1,934 Posts
Originally Posted by iTod
Seems like almost the same as sweating copper pipes. Very interesting!
Yes, it's very much the same as sweating copper pipes. One thing I do differently is I try to minimize the number of places where I feed in braze,and try to do it in places where any resulting slobber will be removed. For a head lug this means feeding as much as possible from the top, where the excess tube will be trimmed when the head tube is faced and milled. For this to work, you need to have the entire joint well heated before you start feeding in braze. I push some in, then use the heat of the torch to pull it to where I want it to go. You can actually see where the braze is under the lug as that area will be slightly cooler and darker than areas with void space beneath the lug. It is often possible to fill the entire joint with only one or two insertion sites on the lug. The resulting joint needs minimal cleanup after the flux is removed.



JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 01:36 AM
  #13  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 79
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Eisentraut expressed some disaffection resonant with me. Not every bit helps

I wasn't listening but things went well and the video was made by someone who knows stuff I don't. He didn't seem to heat the inside surface of the headtube to help things along. (although acetylene will tend to pull some trick like accumulating inside a tube; find someone to translate the kanji from your torch instruction manual.) If you got a B-size tubeset and you're making a ~52cm frame you can have a bunch (~1.5cm) of extraneous headtube sticking out of the lugs to heat in hope of promoting sufficient temp throughout somewhat evenly. A difference with copper pipe plumbing is not worrying about burning a hole through the precious tube but there were probably admonitions to keep the flame moving. Silver is not too frustrating to work with if everything is clean and the lugs aren't stamped, but needs really tiny gaps at the dropouts and stays, bridge, etc. (You aren't supposed to do old dropouts with it, unless you can crimp like Basso (supposed to sound like bend...Beckham.)) I find silver flux frustratingly akin to really stale frosting and you should really pay attention to the part of the video where he says the lugs have been filed and fit well. Whatever part of the tube the lug scrapes flux off may be an area which sticks less. Brass is challenging IMHO and I failed at it with solidox pellet torch which is probably still menacing some locales. I think I've done it right once, with silver in the BB. It sparkled like kid-friendly fireworks, [snake, sparlker];(at the head tube lugs the BB is really good for silver because it's so massive with heat retention and the MAPP gas flames that one holds by the cartridge can do those on a hot day. Mostly investment-cast BBs are what are available but they used to also be "rolled" which was better done with brass, and is also found on old store-bought frames hint. Friends of mine have procured Bridgeports for mitering the tubes. (It's weird I can't remember the term for the most important thing to do, I'm replaying the utube (hopefully)with sound.) OK mitering the tubes is what everyone says maximizes the strength. If you're doing something stupid like drawing the more parallel parts of the main triangle together with buffered twisted wire loops good mitering will leave the lugs loose over their tubes, I've heard. The same friend appallingly initially mitered his tubes with carpentry hole cutters, and fondly displayed a photo from some text showing one of the masters' joining setups using a rock to prop the tube. (Maybe you've seen the book saying the French toss the whole bike into an oven; An oven is kind of a good idea for paint I thought, but I wasn't close enough to any pizza entrepreneurs.) I think the Paterek guy says to make a plywood jig with medium holes where the joints are. Always have a full bucket of water near site of your brazing, and serious charged extinguishers as well. At this point I would ask at least those who are conventionally proportioned why they want to do this so much. To get only one solid color without any masking costs $300 not including S+H, and you do not have the attention span to finish your work in sufficient preparation for chroming. (Well, I guess the platers can lay on thick copper, but there you go, defeating significant original criteria.) Really nicely done bikes like Treks and Austro Daimlers and Atalas go for cheap. I had tiny bits of steel embedded in my eyeglass lenses from doing my mitering with Dremel cutoff wheels, although I was able to do one frame out of an inappropriate housing situation using construction site power; that was when ambient weather I think helped. Don't keep your unsealed MAPP cartridges indoors if you don't want to get evicted. I didn't have the nice quick-change bits either, (attempting a Raleigh Pro-style seatstay attachment will give you insights into Calculus.) It didn't hold when I hit some Volvo guy pulling up across my narrow lane, probably fillet silver headtube joins, which doesn't work. I made him buy me a new MAPP cylinder. I heard apprentices filed lugwork for a couple years before they did joints, and then would be instructed to saw them apart to reveal cross-sections, to check flow (of brass, Ag is safer.) Somewhere there's some smelter who'll dip that practice assembly to recover the silver. Also be prepared to cuss because once you start you have to finish and the chemistry incurs a deadline and only experience or maybe checklists will find you fully prepared and not having to later align the thing. Did anybody see the Paramount P-15 that went for ~$175? I'll also say a fully pitted Treviso has the same psychological worth as a cool homemade with crappy paint. Except nobody really knows what assemblage of tubes the Treviso has. Oh did I mention what anatomical grip the bike shop you know or don't know will have when you have to mill and face your article? What you have to do is copy a bike you already like; I recommend Ciocc for tall people, and most of their smoke chrome flakes off rendering the piece not worth much. MAX bikes seem to crack at the seat clamp, (acknowledged non-sequitur.) Contrary to any appearance of erudition, I've only got one fork (and a half) to claim; these days the weight savings obviate carbon. BTW send me all your unwanted 12mm, aero, and double-taper seatstays and congratulations or sympathy for perusing this. Frankly, I'm going to build a recumbent to use them before I finish any more forks.
Dovetube is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 04:55 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,674

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma

Mentioned: 210 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1372 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,751 Times in 938 Posts
Eisentraut expressed some disaffection resonant with me. Not every bit helps

I wasn't listening but things went well and the video was made by someone who knows stuff I don't. He didn't seem to heat the inside surface of the headtube to help things along. (although acetylene will tend to pull some trick like accumulating inside a tube; find someone to translate the kanji from your torch instruction manual.) If you got a B-size tubeset and you're making a ~52cm frame you can have a bunch (~1.5cm) of extraneous headtube sticking out of the lugs to heat in hope of promoting sufficient temp throughout somewhat evenly. A difference with copper pipe plumbing is not worrying about burning a hole through the precious tube but there were probably admonitions to keep the flame moving. Silver is not too frustrating to work with if everything is clean and the lugs aren't stamped, but needs really tiny gaps at the dropouts and stays, bridge, etc. (You aren't supposed to do old dropouts with it, unless you can crimp like Basso (supposed to sound like bend...Beckham.)) I find silver flux frustratingly akin to really stale frosting and you should really pay attention to the part of the video where he says the lugs have been filed and fit well. Whatever part of the tube the lug scrapes flux off may be an area which sticks less. Brass is challenging IMHO and I failed at it with solidox pellet torch which is probably still menacing some locales. I think I've done it right once, with silver in the BB. It sparkled like kid-friendly fireworks, [snake, sparlker];(at the head tube lugs the BB is really good for silver because it's so massive with heat retention and the MAPP gas flames that one holds by the cartridge can do those on a hot day. Mostly investment-cast BBs are what are available but they used to also be "rolled" which was better done with brass, and is also found on old store-bought frames hint. Friends of mine have procured Bridgeports for mitering the tubes. (It's weird I can't remember the term for the most important thing to do, I'm replaying the utube (hopefully)with sound.) OK mitering the tubes is what everyone says maximizes the strength. If you're doing something stupid like drawing the more parallel parts of the main triangle together with buffered twisted wire loops good mitering will leave the lugs loose over their tubes, I've heard. The same friend appallingly initially mitered his tubes with carpentry hole cutters, and fondly displayed a photo from some text showing one of the masters' joining setups using a rock to prop the tube. (Maybe you've seen the book saying the French toss the whole bike into an oven; An oven is kind of a good idea for paint I thought, but I wasn't close enough to any pizza entrepreneurs.) I think the Paterek guy says to make a plywood jig with medium holes where the joints are. Always have a full bucket of water near site of your brazing, and serious charged extinguishers as well. At this point I would ask at least those who are conventionally proportioned why they want to do this so much. To get only one solid color without any masking costs $300 not including S+H, and you do not have the attention span to finish your work in sufficient preparation for chroming. (Well, I guess the platers can lay on thick copper, but there you go, defeating significant original criteria.) Really nicely done bikes like Treks and Austro Daimlers and Atalas go for cheap. I had tiny bits of steel embedded in my eyeglass lenses from doing my mitering with Dremel cutoff wheels, although I was able to do one frame out of an inappropriate housing situation using construction site power; that was when ambient weather I think helped. Don't keep your unsealed MAPP cartridges indoors if you don't want to get evicted. I didn't have the nice quick-change bits either, (attempting a Raleigh Pro-style seatstay attachment will give you insights into Calculus.) It didn't hold when I hit some Volvo guy pulling up across my narrow lane, probably fillet silver headtube joins, which doesn't work. I made him buy me a new MAPP cylinder. I heard apprentices filed lugwork for a couple years before they did joints, and then would be instructed to saw them apart to reveal cross-sections, to check flow (of brass, Ag is safer.) Somewhere there's some smelter who'll dip that practice assembly to recover the silver. Also be prepared to cuss because once you start you have to finish and the chemistry incurs a deadline and only experience or maybe checklists will find you fully prepared and not having to later align the thing. Did anybody see the Paramount P-15 that went for ~$175? I'll also say a fully pitted Treviso has the same psychological worth as a cool homemade with crappy paint. Except nobody really knows what assemblage of tubes the Treviso has. Oh did I mention what anatomical grip the bike shop you know or don't know will have when you have to mill and face your article? What you have to do is copy a bike you already like; I recommend Ciocc for tall people, and most of their smoke chrome flakes off rendering the piece not worth much. MAX bikes seem to crack at the seat clamp, (acknowledged non-sequitur.) Contrary to any appearance of erudition, I've only got one fork (and a half) to claim; these days the weight savings obviate carbon. BTW send me all your unwanted 12mm, aero, and double-taper seatstays and congratulations or sympathy for perusing this. Frankly, I'm going to build a recumbent to use them before I finish any more forks.

Good stuff but very hard to read. Try breaking your thoughts up into paragraphs, please.
__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 05:36 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
ftwelder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: vermont
Posts: 3,081

Bikes: Many

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts
I keep practicing and getting better but it's challenging. I am building my first "gas torch" frame right now. I am beginning to see a glimpse of what come as second nature to an experienced brazer. I am sure it will take a while. While filing away excess brass, I think about where I went wrong.
ftwelder is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 10:56 AM
  #16  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Fletch521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Loves Park, Illinois
Posts: 414

Bikes: 1897 Crescent Tandem, 1904 Rambler shaft drive, 1921 Schwinn Henderson, 1958 Schwinn Tiger, 1973 Raleigh International, 1982 Trek 420, 2010 Trek 720

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry trouble adding new link

Last edited by Fletch521; 01-27-12 at 10:59 AM. Reason: trouble adding new link
Fletch521 is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 10:58 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Fletch521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Loves Park, Illinois
Posts: 414

Bikes: 1897 Crescent Tandem, 1904 Rambler shaft drive, 1921 Schwinn Henderson, 1958 Schwinn Tiger, 1973 Raleigh International, 1982 Trek 420, 2010 Trek 720

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
https://youtu.be/hNuSpJJoWCg
Fletch521 is offline  
Old 01-27-12, 11:24 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Cassave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodland Hills, Calif.
Posts: 1,671
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by mkeller234
The video was pretty neat. I would like to see some comments from someone here that can build frames.

I really liked the music choice... although I would have picked "with my own bare hands"
Meh. That flame looked a bit too neutral for my taste. I use a very quiet carburizing flame. As he was feeding silver he drew the torch in a bit close a few times.
Cassave is offline  
Old 01-30-12, 12:12 PM
  #19  
Diarmuid BOC
 
dpuboc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: SW London
Posts: 17

Bikes: 1936 Claud Butler "Road Path", 1954 Claud Butler"Ambassador"

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Lovely.
Thanks for the video, I sculpt in metal, (Casting mainly), I've done a little brazing but I see now I wasn't generous enough with the flux. Steel tube of course is off the shelf. Where do lugs come from Dad?? Are they cast, pressed, formed???
dpuboc is offline  
Old 01-30-12, 12:26 PM
  #20  
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times in 2,518 Posts
a little too crusty for my tastes. I would have to take a few deep breaths if I managed to get my flux that discolored. With silver, proper heat control means very little carbon precipitation. There was also a point where he had a big pool of silver on the tube and yet he was adding more silver. Good way to make a mess.

I also feed my filler from a place on a tube where I'm going to cut off the tube; in this case it would be on the headtube. Nothing I hate more than filing, and the easiest way to get a good shoreline is if you don't have to file
unterhausen is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
IAmSam
Fixed Gear Freestyle
0
01-02-14 05:09 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.