WW C&V D? Nisi tubulars sans eyelets or... fill in the blank?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
WW C&V D? Nisi tubulars sans eyelets or... fill in the blank?
some of you may be following my Colnago Super build found here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...ead?highlight=
i'm nearing completion with only the wheelset holding me up at this point.
my original intention was to build up the wheels using Campagnolo Record low flange hubs, DT stainless spokes and these Nisi Moncalieri 700c tubular rims (purchased over a year ago on a whim):
as you can see they are without eyelets.
the same rims adorn many fine bicycles (stolen pics from my favorite bike porn website https://www.speedbicycles.ch/start.php):
1976 Bianchi Specialissima
1974 Colnago Super Eddy Merckx
1975 DeRosa Pista (not Nisis, but non-eyelet Martanos)
based on the research i've done (BF, google, etc.), it is clear that a rim with eyelets is superior to a similar rim without. although is seems to be a subject, like many others, where there is no right or wrong answer, only an understanding of what to expect from one option or the other.
i guess this is where the question of my intentions lie... how badly do i want to build a period correct (at least in appearance) bike? in all actuality this tubular wheelset will probably see infrequent use compared to the clincher wheelset i plan on riding the bike with (Campagnolo high flange hubs to modern polished clinchers).
what kind of "issues" should i expect from the Nisi rims i want to use? any?
are non-eyeleted rims that much more difficult to true and tension?
in your opinion, am i wasting my time and money building these up?
the Nisis look and are supposedly NOS with some shop wear, so they have no mileage and would theoretically be as good as new from mid 1970's standards. i would expect to get many many miles of use out of them.
i'm nearing completion with only the wheelset holding me up at this point.
my original intention was to build up the wheels using Campagnolo Record low flange hubs, DT stainless spokes and these Nisi Moncalieri 700c tubular rims (purchased over a year ago on a whim):
as you can see they are without eyelets.
the same rims adorn many fine bicycles (stolen pics from my favorite bike porn website https://www.speedbicycles.ch/start.php):
1976 Bianchi Specialissima
1974 Colnago Super Eddy Merckx
1975 DeRosa Pista (not Nisis, but non-eyelet Martanos)
based on the research i've done (BF, google, etc.), it is clear that a rim with eyelets is superior to a similar rim without. although is seems to be a subject, like many others, where there is no right or wrong answer, only an understanding of what to expect from one option or the other.
i guess this is where the question of my intentions lie... how badly do i want to build a period correct (at least in appearance) bike? in all actuality this tubular wheelset will probably see infrequent use compared to the clincher wheelset i plan on riding the bike with (Campagnolo high flange hubs to modern polished clinchers).
what kind of "issues" should i expect from the Nisi rims i want to use? any?
are non-eyeleted rims that much more difficult to true and tension?
in your opinion, am i wasting my time and money building these up?
the Nisis look and are supposedly NOS with some shop wear, so they have no mileage and would theoretically be as good as new from mid 1970's standards. i would expect to get many many miles of use out of them.
#2
car guy, recovering
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mount Vernon, NY
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
I used to tour on a bike with Nisi tubular rims without eyelets. They lasted many thousands of miles, though they did eventually develop cracks radiating from the spoke holes.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
#3
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,487
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2395 Post(s)
Liked 4,337 Times
in
2,070 Posts
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,756
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
11 Posts
In the real world when these bikes were really used as bikes, rims without eyelets would usually crack around the spoke holes eventually. But with that said the same mileage Fiamme would have enough flat spots and sidewall dings to be ready for the trash heap too.
All the old lightweight tubular rims have issues under hard use. But most people are not riding their classics enough, or hard enough for it to matter much these days. I would run those Nisi's, I have a pair on my '77 Bianchi.
All the old lightweight tubular rims have issues under hard use. But most people are not riding their classics enough, or hard enough for it to matter much these days. I would run those Nisi's, I have a pair on my '77 Bianchi.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,315
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3447 Post(s)
Liked 2,786 Times
in
1,967 Posts
Nisis were common on Colnagos. As a wheel builder back in the day, I did not like building them, the special washers (look like countersink trim washers with a fill on the back side) needed time to seat. They had more short period wobble than other brands. They did make a 200 gram rim that was what one used for a Pursuit.
I have some on my current bikes, they hold their true fine, but a Martano can be made more perfect. Probably due to the machined sides. Mavic are also good, and Super Champions were also acceptable.
For Italian of the period, its Nisi or Martano.
A decade later, Ambrosio or FIR.
For a mod rim, Ambrosio Nemesis.
I have some on my current bikes, they hold their true fine, but a Martano can be made more perfect. Probably due to the machined sides. Mavic are also good, and Super Champions were also acceptable.
For Italian of the period, its Nisi or Martano.
A decade later, Ambrosio or FIR.
For a mod rim, Ambrosio Nemesis.
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,756
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
11 Posts
info.tbs@verizon.net
Or maybe ask on the CR list, some of the other old-time wheelbuilders may have a stash.
#9
car guy, recovering
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mount Vernon, NY
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Washers, round and oval, are available from many wheelbuilder supply places. United Bicycle Supply has them, though they are wholesale only. You should definitely use washers.
The original washers on Nisi's high-end rims around 1970 were cupped with a leather-like material inside that cushioned the nipple head. I've not seen them available anywhere since then.
Unless you weigh a lot and plan to put a load of miles on the rims, you shouldn't have problems with them cracking any time soon.
The original washers on Nisi's high-end rims around 1970 were cupped with a leather-like material inside that cushioned the nipple head. I've not seen them available anywhere since then.
Unless you weigh a lot and plan to put a load of miles on the rims, you shouldn't have problems with them cracking any time soon.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
#10
Senior Member
Thread Starter
ok, how about these 3 options currently on feebay?
VeloFuze small oval nipple washers
VeloFuze round nipple washers
vintage oval nipple washers
which would you recommend? would any of the above work?
based on what Otis said, i'm thinking the "vintage" ones are probably the ticket but they are the most expensive and coming from an international seller (only concern being time to receive them). also, they look just like Sapim washers.
i will probably go with the "small oval" washers if you guys concur... but if the "vintage" washers would work better, i can be patient too
VeloFuze small oval nipple washers
VeloFuze round nipple washers
vintage oval nipple washers
which would you recommend? would any of the above work?
based on what Otis said, i'm thinking the "vintage" ones are probably the ticket but they are the most expensive and coming from an international seller (only concern being time to receive them). also, they look just like Sapim washers.
i will probably go with the "small oval" washers if you guys concur... but if the "vintage" washers would work better, i can be patient too
#11
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,487
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 121 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2395 Post(s)
Liked 4,337 Times
in
2,070 Posts
#12
car guy, recovering
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mount Vernon, NY
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
I like the oval washers, though they are a little more fussy to fit through the holes, as cudak888 pointed out. I can't see any advantage in using vintage washers.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
#13
十人十色
Not quite the same but I used Sepim oval washers with a pair of eyelet-less 50s Constrictor Asp clincher rims and they are fine. No double walls to thread them through, however.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
Hey Shnibop. Did you already pull the trigger on those? If not, I may have you covered. I have a NOS set of NISI rims just like yours, complete in wrapper with washers. I just measured them. 10 mm OD. Round shape. I also picked up, before I bought these rims, while thinking of restoring the old ones that came on my Frejus, some stainless washers. 9.5 mm OD. Same bore as the originals, which look like plain steel, galvanized maybe. I bought the stainless ones at a marine supply house. Very high quality stuff. I can even "dome" them for you if you like as I have a dapping block and dies. In other words, I'm washer rich. I even have brass ones if you would like. If you need either, just let me know. Six bucks for either, shipped.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
#16
Senior Member
I recently laced up a period correct wheelset for my '73 World Voyageur using Araya 27" non-eyeleted, single wall rims. I should have used washers. Do I unlace them and install washers? Tough call.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 02-03-12 at 11:08 AM.
#17
Senior Member
I'm looking forward to seeing the completed bike!
Which rims are you using for the modern polished clincher set?
Which rims are you using for the modern polished clincher set?
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
What? Most of your wheelsets aren't 24h front/rear? Pfft. I thought you were cool.
I recently laced up a period correct wheelset for my '73 World Voyageur using Araya 27" non-eyeleted rims. I should have used washers. Do I unlace them and install washers? Tough call.
I recently laced up a period correct wheelset for my '73 World Voyageur using Araya 27" non-eyeleted rims. I should have used washers. Do I unlace them and install washers? Tough call.
Lemme know if you need some washers.
I'm not even sure I'd know how to lace up a 24 hole hub.
#19
Senior Member
Oh yeah. I've seen plenty.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
I kept the originals when I disassembled my Frejus wheels, Aixaix. I was thinking of re-using them but, man ...are they funky. Look like brass, maybe nickel plated originally, shaped like a domed finishing washer, with some sort of Italian magic fiber insert.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
I just went and read your thread on the Colnago, Schnibop. I had admired the pics of that frame, and the nice paint job, but missed the "digital picture fee" thing. You can have these washers, if you need them for six bucks. 100% of the proceeds will go to the purchase and shipping of a stink bomb which I plan to send to those fellows down in San Diego.
#22
十人十色
The 'vintage oval nipple washers' look just like the Sapims I've got. I can send you 72 or them for free, if you want, shnibob. I have 228 of them left over from the Constrictor Asps...
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Rootboy, Dawes-man: you guys are so generous, you will both be receiving PM's from me soon, just need to decide which route I want to go.
I appreciate everyone's input, I guess I'll be able to use these rims afterall. I'd all but written them off completely.
I appreciate everyone's input, I guess I'll be able to use these rims afterall. I'd all but written them off completely.
#24
car guy, recovering
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mount Vernon, NY
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
I kept the originals when I disassembled my Frejus wheels, Aixaix. I was thinking of re-using them but, man ...are they funky. Look like brass, maybe nickel plated originally, shaped like a domed finishing washer, with some sort of Italian magic fiber insert.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wherever
Posts: 16,755
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 132 Times
in
78 Posts
I thought about it too. Wound up tossing them. The leathery-fibery inserts were hard as rocks & I was afraid they'd crack up and fall out, leaving a spoke with no tension. I have built up Nisi rims a number of times with the Sapim oval washers and haven't had any problems. However, I don't ride nearly as much or as hard as I did when they (and I) were new.