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Old 04-29-12, 11:53 PM   #1
OldSchoolGuy
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New Paramount problem - Headset doesn't fit.

The bike is a 1970 P13. This is my fourth bike build over the past thirty years. The others were an Olmo, a Gios, my Ciocc, and now this Paramount, so I know headsets are a press fit, but this one has me baffled. The I.D. for the fork race is .002" smaller than the O.D. of the fork. The next problem is with the cups. Their O.D. is .008" greater than the I.D. of the head. I don't know what to do. Put the cups in dry ice? Hone the I.D. of the head? With just .002" interference, the fork race might press on, I just don't know. The collar threads onto the fork without difficulty. I believe the entire frame may have been re-plated. The frame is absolutely beautiful, cosmetically flawless, so I don't want to give it to the LBS to have it buggered with a BFH. Ship it back to Waterford? Am I missing something obvious to others? Any ideas will be appreciated.

Thanks again,
John

Last edited by OldSchoolGuy; 04-29-12 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention bike model.
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Old 04-30-12, 03:46 AM   #2
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Try another headset before condeming the fork or frame.
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Old 04-30-12, 04:59 AM   #3
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Did you just receive back from Waterford after a refinishing and new paint? If so, the new paint could be the culprit. Do you have the proper tools to install (headset press and crown race setter)? If you don't, and don't trust the LBS, purchase these tools first.


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Old 04-30-12, 05:48 AM   #4
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Step 1: Contact Waterford, I bet they can help.

Step 2: Proper tools like PB recommends.
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Old 04-30-12, 06:20 AM   #5
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That bicycle takes an ISO/italian/bsa headset to start with, In a matter of fact they came with a campagnolo strada headset. Now my questions...

The frame was prep already???

What headset are u trying to put in the bike??

Are u measuring in inches or in metric system??

If you are kind'a anal with measurements what you can do is just use a file in the fork crown race area, probably in less than 30 secs that thing will be at the right size, we are talking about centecimals of a mm in here.

If the frame was repainted or rechromed then is easy to figure it out that the extra stuff is coming from there because sure you have chrome or paint inside of the front tube.

The frame might need to be chased again, if the frame is new and never built probably never been chased, any descent LBS can do that but so far at leas the crown race is just file tiny bit and with a lot of grease will fit right in.

The cups you said 0.008 inches?? that's 0.2032 millimeters.. sincerely that thing will slide right in but I would take the frame to the shop to get it chased just in case.

Good luck and post pictures.
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Old 04-30-12, 08:36 AM   #6
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Ultra, yes, the measurements were in inches - .008" O/S for the cps, AND .002" O/S for the fork crown. Since I have a machine shop, I'm more inclined to use methods less crude than filing, more on the order of laping. Yes, the bike had been re-sprayed and chromed by Waterford. The bike is a 1970, so it had certainly been assembled in the past. Also, I do have proper seating tools for the headset which is an early Nuovo Record.

Thanks for the ideas, I'll post any future success or, hopefully not, failure.

John
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Old 04-30-12, 10:19 AM   #7
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Ultra, just one more question. I'm not familiar with the "chase" process. Would that involve dimensioning the frame and fork surfaces that mate with the headset?

Thanks
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Old 04-30-12, 10:34 AM   #8
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Does your LBS have the Campy "Go/No-Go" gauges?





These are the quick 'n' easy way to see if your frame/fork needs milling prior to headset installation.
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Old 04-30-12, 10:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGuy View Post
Ultra, just one more question. I'm not familiar with the "chase" process. Would that involve dimensioning the frame and fork surfaces that mate with the headset?

Thanks
This might help: http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-...ing-and-facing
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Old 04-30-12, 07:07 PM   #10
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Yes... facing... always get confused with the words, sorry... satbuilder link will do it.

Bike shops have those tools, what surprise me is that they did not send the frame already prep??

Will take 10 minutes to get that front tube prep, the good thing is that the headset will seat right in the front tube, and no risks of a creaking headset.
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Old 04-30-12, 11:20 PM   #11
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Ultra,

Seems there is a reportedly competent shop walking distance from my home. I will check them out Wednesday,

John Thompson,

Could you give me the dimensions of the go/no-go gauges? I would like to turn one for myself.

Thanks,
John
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Old 05-01-12, 03:48 AM   #12
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OldSchoolGuy, I think all of us Paramount fans are dying for a few pictures of a Waterford refinished P-13. Quit teasing us!
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Old 05-01-12, 09:56 AM   #13
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Pastor,

The frame is gorgeous. I have a copy of the eBay photo as the background on my computer screen. I can also take a photo with my cellphone, but being a truly " old guy", I don't know how to post these. A few years ago, on this forum, I attempted to post photos of my Ciocc. I did something with Photo Bucket(?) then, as I recall, I posted the link but it didn't come up automatically. One of the guys on the forum fixed it. Those might still be alive. If somebody can walk me through the process, I'd love to post some pix. The eBay item number is 110865380048. One photo remains. I just re-read eBay the posting and realize it only said "Original Waterford Decals" and I may have read more into that than was there. That would explain why the head had not been reamed. Now I feel like a bloody idiot. I'd still like to post some photos.

John
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Old 05-01-12, 01:42 PM   #14
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OSG, the one pic remaining from the auction:


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Old 05-01-12, 02:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolGuy View Post
The bike is a 1970 P13. This is my fourth bike build over the past thirty years. The others were an Olmo, a Gios, my Ciocc, and now this Paramount, so I know headsets are a press fit, but this one has me baffled. The I.D. for the fork race is .002" smaller than the O.D. of the fork. The next problem is with the cups. Their O.D. is .008" greater than the I.D. of the head..

Thanks again,
John

The fork race is .05mm smaller than the fork, I think that's well within proper tolerance. The frame cups are .2mm bigger than the frame, I think that's a probelm.

I've tried installing ISO/BSA 30.2 cups in a JIS 30.0 frame and they dont fit.

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Old 05-01-12, 03:53 PM   #16
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this has been a valuable and timely thread for me as i just received a super record headset to replace the french stronglight in my old grand record. the cups sem a bit too large for the head, but they will probably fit with a little work. the park article is interesting in that it states the cups need to be a 0.05mm larger than the head, but not to exceed 0.3mm, which will require reaming the tube. my question: does one always ream the tube to fit the headset, or might one also attempt to shave a bit from the cups by sanding?
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Old 05-01-12, 05:22 PM   #17
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Oldshoolguy... sincerely you dont need the go no go tool, a good caliper do the trick and apparently you work with precision tools too.
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Old 05-01-12, 06:04 PM   #18
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John Thompson,

Could you give me the dimensions of the go/no-go gauges? I would like to turn one for myself.

Thanks,
John
I only have a vernier caliper for measuring, so you're only getting four significant figures.

1) Head tube gauge
No-go 30.15mm
Go 30.05mm

2) Crown race gauge
No-go 26.35mm
Go 26.45mm

HTH...
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Old 05-01-12, 11:22 PM   #19
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John,

Thanks, that will do fine, will help me with any future builds.

John
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Old 05-01-12, 11:38 PM   #20
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Ex Pres,

Yes, that is the frame. It will be assembled closely to original, but will be a daily rider, not a museum piece. The major departures from original are Universal Super 68 brakes (I never really cared for the Weinmans) but I might swap those out for the Super Recs on my Ciocc. That would require me to locate or make a non-recessed pivot bolt. Other deviations include Campione Del Mondo bars in place of the Giros, Super Rec crankset instead of NR, Ambrosia Montreal rims, and Campy SL pedals with Ale clips instead of NR pedals and Christophe clips. The changes were either because of what I already had on hand or what I could scrounge from eBay. All are either NOS or VGC. Also, I was originally going to use black Tressostar tape but have decided to go with red. That was the wife's idea and I sort of agree with her since the lettering on the frame is red. The only part I don't have as yet is the stem which is coming from a vendor in Germany. I'm 74 years of age but this build is making me feel like a kid at Christmas time.

OSG
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Old 05-02-12, 02:48 AM   #21
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I'm 74 years of age but this build is making me feel like a kid at Christmas time.

OSG
awesome
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Old 05-02-12, 05:23 AM   #22
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Red tape is a great choice to go with the Kool Lemon paint!
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Old 05-02-12, 06:04 AM   #23
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Looking foward to seeing your finished bicycle. sounds like it is going to be awesome.
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Old 05-02-12, 08:29 AM   #24
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The fork race is .05mm smaller than the fork, I think that's well within proper tolerance. The frame cups are .05mm bigger than the frame, I think that's well within tolerance as well.
Correct. These parts are press-fits, folks!

The Spec. is:

"Crown race seat should be 0.025 to 0.05 mm larger than the crown race itself."

"Inside the head tube should be 0.025 to 0.1 mm smaller than the pressed race."

Edit: that .008" is indeed 0.2 mm, a bit much, almost certainly due to new plating. That should be refaced/re-cut with a Campy tool or equivalent....

Last edited by 753proguy; 05-02-12 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 05-02-12, 09:59 AM   #25
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It's not the .002 that would concern me. It's the .008. That's a little much to call a press fit, at least where I work.
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