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Old 05-01-12, 04:36 PM   #1
buldogge
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New Project...OA or Molasses Bath???

Hey Guys...My new project arrived from the NL today (Thanx Mel!). It's the Vittorio Strada MAX that Mel posted in the Dutch Bikes thread.

Unfortunately, it has rusty chainstays...but...I'm gonna save the old girl.

I have new MAX chainstays sitting here and I want to give the frame a bath first. I was thinking molasses, but I know a lot of people have had good luck with OA.

Does anyone have direct experience with using OA with a Nivacrom tubed frame? I have no idea if it is a problem or not...it is not heat treated at least. The paint will be stripped, so that part is a non-issue.

Thoughts???

TIA
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Old 05-01-12, 05:16 PM   #2
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If you are going to change them why to clean the frame?? I would clean that frame after the replacement chainstays is completed because sure some stuff will get stained anyways with the heat of the torch.

Either way probably the best to do after the fix is finished and thinking that you wont rechrome the new chainstays, then i would just sand blast it really good, that will take care of everything and all the rust.
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Old 05-01-12, 05:25 PM   #3
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I would sand blast it cause who know what OA will give off when it's burned? What will an OA bath do anyways if you have to remove the stays and braze in new ones? Your going to want to strip all the paint off first before hitting it with a torch.
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Old 05-01-12, 06:21 PM   #4
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Hey guys...frame will be stripped with aircraft stripper...I would not "sand"blast a thin-tubed frame! The frame needs an anti-rust bath...new stays will be brazed to the cleanest metal possible.

The question is one of OA or molasses in regards to thin walled Columbus steel (in this case Nivacrom)...

TA
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Old 05-01-12, 06:23 PM   #5
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This one? It doesn't look like MAX or are just a few of the tubes MAX?

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Old 05-01-12, 06:44 PM   #6
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Hey guys...frame will be stripped with aircraft stripper...I would not "sand"blast a thin-tubed frame! The frame needs an anti-rust bath...new stays will be brazed to the cleanest metal possible.

The question is one of OA or molasses in regards to thin walled Columbus steel (in this case Nivacrom)...

TA
ok I am not a frame builder but every bit of metal work i've done wants the joints to be sanded or other wise mechanically cleaned before flux and solder/braze. I would check in the frame builders forum, but if it were me, I would ignore the OA and use sandpaper and scotchbrite pads to mechanicall remove the rust... once clean only touch with gloves on.

good luck with the project


Also OA is not an anti-rust agent.
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Old 05-01-12, 09:43 PM   #7
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OK...My last wasted post on this. I don't need instructions on how to strip a frame, prep it, or braze it. The frame will be stripped with aircraft stripper, the stays will be de-brazed, the joints will be properly prepped, and the new stays will be brazed in.

I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE THE FRAME A BATH BEFOREHAND...DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE USING OA WITH NIVACROM FRAMES???

BG...That is not the frame in question, this is:



All MAX including TT.
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Old 05-01-12, 09:59 PM   #8
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OK I am not going to answer you question either but I have never heard of using molasses. By what chemical process does molasses remove rust?
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Old 05-01-12, 10:31 PM   #9
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Same as OA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation
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Old 05-01-12, 10:37 PM   #10
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I've never owned a frame made from that tubing let alone treated one with oxalic acid. I would, though, but likely with a weaker solution that I normally use.
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Old 05-01-12, 10:43 PM   #11
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Hey Justin... How weak is a good weak starting point??? TSPs to Gallons, say?

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I've never owned a frame made from that tubing let alone treated one with oxalic acid. I would, though, but likely with a weaker solution that I normally use.
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Old 05-01-12, 10:46 PM   #12
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Mark, for better or worse I just eyeball it. I don't suppose it can hurt to start out too weak. I'd start with 2tsp/gal (wood bleach crystals).

That's a great looking frame aside from the paint job!
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Old 05-01-12, 11:04 PM   #13
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She will live again as a doppleganger to Mel's older Strada...pearl white with gold graphics.

She will be built up with Campy 11s...deciding between Athena alloy and Chorus CF...I have both gruppos on hand.

Wheels will sorta go with gruppo...either 28H Record (courtesy of BG) laced to silver A23s or 32H Chorus laced to black A23s.



TA

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Mark, for better or worse I just eyeball it. I don't suppose it can hurt to start out too weak. I'd start with 2tsp/gal (wood bleach crystals).

That's a great looking frame aside from the paint job!
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Old 05-01-12, 11:05 PM   #14
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Molasses? It's not a pancake, it's a frame. <g> Oxalic acid FTW.
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Old 05-01-12, 11:07 PM   #15
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I really like the white and alloy combination. Are A23s available in silver?
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Old 05-01-12, 11:13 PM   #16
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Yep...The wheels are sitting here, already built.

Latest word from Velocity is an A23 OC rear!

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I really like the white and alloy combination. Are A23s available in silver?
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Old 05-01-12, 11:16 PM   #17
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are the chainstays really bad enough to merit replacement? I don't think Nivacrom is all that special as far as OA goes
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Old 05-01-12, 11:19 PM   #18
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Yep...The wheels are sitting here, already built.

Latest word from Velocity is an A23 OC rear!
Nice!
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Old 05-01-12, 11:19 PM   #19
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Unfortunately...



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are the chainstays really bad enough to merit replacement? I don't think Nivacrom is all that special as far as OA goes
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Old 05-01-12, 11:21 PM   #20
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Mark, for better or worse I just eyeball it. I don't suppose it can hurt to start out too weak. I'd start with 2tsp/gal (wood bleach crystals).

That's a great looking frame aside from the paint job!
I've used 1 tablespoon per gallon for a mild solution and it did the job nicely over a two-day soak with intermittent scrubbing with a green pad and an assortment of stiff nylon and brass brushes for a couple of very rusty frames.
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Old 05-02-12, 03:38 AM   #21
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I love this paint scheme.



OMG!!! As the owner of three MAX frames I find this scary.

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Old 05-02-12, 04:05 AM   #22
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Nivacrome is same as any other bike steel when it comes to OA or any other process typical to your venture. No worries there.

'Pretty interesting rust holes. It looks like it was hung with moisture inside at the perfect angle to collect in the shape of the tube?

Perhaps it had been scratched there.

Your frame likely will be sandblasted at some point before paint but I have to tell you how happy I am that you mentioned that care that must be taken and that paint should not be removed with abrasives.
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Old 05-02-12, 04:33 AM   #23
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I've used 1 tablespoon per gallon for a mild solution and it did the job nicely over a two-day soak with intermittent scrubbing with a green pad and an assortment of stiff nylon and brass brushes for a couple of very rusty frames.
Exactly what I use.

I use a cheap electric toothbrush and that seems to work quite well.

I think your project is outstanding and can't wait to hear of your progress.

Mark, I am also building a set of 36h A23s for my recently acquired Sachs cyclocross frameset.

Record hubs.

Any major differences in the quality since Velocity moved production to the United States?

Florida I recall.

I've heard rumblings about this matter online, but never first hand.

I love the look and the ability to run honking wide tires.

I've also had great luck with Aeroheads, so I figure why not give these a try.
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Old 05-02-12, 06:34 AM   #24
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Thanx guys...

Grady, I haven't noticed any change. The A23s build up really nicely. The silver ones had the new stickers, and I assume were the new production.

Frank...I don't plan on sand touching it during the process. I'm not gonna use it, and my painter doesn't even have blasting equipment. The frame really doesn't look very bad other than the stays and a bit on the inside of the ST. I think you are exactly right, it was stored on the floor with the stays parallel to the ground (resting on it's heels as it were) and this was the low spot.

OA it is then, easier to deal with, less messy.

TA
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Old 05-02-12, 06:39 AM   #25
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Thanx guys...

Grady, I haven't noticed any change. The A23s build up really nicely. The silver ones had the new stickers, and I assume were the new production.

Frank...I don't plan on sand touching it during the process. I'm not gonna use it, and my painter doesn't even have blasting equipment. The frame really doesn't look very bad other than the stays and a bit on the inside of the ST. I think you are exactly right, it was stored on the floor with the stays parallel to the ground (resting on it's heels as it were) and this was the low spot.

OA it is then, easier to deal with, less messy.

TA
Thanks for the info.
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