cudak888 

Hello all,

Not long ago, there was a discussion on the CR list about the Pxxx BB serials on the Paramounts made by Don Mainland. The discussion was thrown off by the existence of two frames bearing a "P1" serial number - nothing more was said after that.

That said, bibliobob just picked up a '72 all-chrome Paramount, s/n. #C72157. I happen to own the '72 that immediately follows; C72158. As every full-chrome '72 was built by Mainland, I had Bob check the P-series serial number on his bottom bracket. He reported #P631. I just checked C72158. It carries the number #P632.



Can't get more sequential than that.

-Kurt

bibliobob

Very cool. My bb stamping is in the same spot, btw. Anyone seen enough '72s to be able to compare the quality of painted Chicago models vs. chrome Mainland frames?

Scooper

Another datapoint: M72274, my chromed December, 1972 P15-9, doesn't have anything stamped on the BB shell.

cudak888 

I have a chromed '70 from Chicago and this Mainland '72. I'm partial to Mainland's lugwork.

That throws the claim that Mainland did all the chrome '72s out the window. Makes you wonder if he only did the chrome 1972 P13-9 Mk.II's.

-Kurt

Metacortex

Is Don Mainland still alive?

Scooper

There's a Donald R. Mainland listed in the Racine white pages.

According to a google search, Donald Richard Mainland of Racine is 80 years old. A Donald R. Mainland is listed as president of Letsch Manufacturing which is listed under die cutting manufacturers. He is also listed as having been associated with Petersen Machine Co., Inc., Racine, WI, as president. A Mick Mainland is listed as a current point of contact for Sales & Management at Petersen Machine Co.

A Donald R. Mainland of Racine, WI, also holds a patent (US 4,713,903 dated Dec. 22, 1987) for a shotgun choke assembly.

Metacortex

That's some good detective work! One of the Paramount cognoscenti should see if he is amenable to some sort of interview, he certainly would have a lot of history and valuable information to share.

well biked

I think I've read that Don Mainland built some '71 Paramount frames as well. FWIW, my full chrome '71 P13-9 doesn't have anything stamped on the bb shell.

cudak888 

Someone on the CR list has a frame marked P1, but it so happens that the Waterford site also has a P1 which isn't his frame. At any rate, I ought to double-check on the S/N of the CR P1 frame and see if it's earlier or later than yours.

-Kurt

well biked

So does it seem fairly certain that if a Paramount has a "P serial" on the bb, it was built by Don Mainland, and if it does not, it was built in Chicago (during the '70's)?

I think I've read in the Paramount writeup on the Waterford site that there's no way to tell, but if the "P serials", or lack thereof, are a sure indicator, then that's good to know.

Rabid Koala

My chrome P15 L72358 has no stamping on the BB, my chrome 71 P13 L171 is stamped with P207. So the P13 is by Mainland and the P15 isn't?

cudak888 

That's pretty much the size of it. There's a drop down menu on one of the 3 versions of the Waterford site that shows a photo of Mainland's "P1" frame, with a caption stating that the P-serials were specifically for Pioneer-built frames - namely, Mainland's company.

However, the writeup contradicts the picture, and states there's no way to ID a Mainland frame. With the claim about P-serials on the same page, I find the statement hard to believe (after all, what else could the P-serial stand for?)

It would seem so. Post a photo of the lugwork on the two - Mainland's filing looks different than the Chicago frames.

-Kurt

Scooper

I found a pretty good write-up about Mainland's company, Pioneer Products, on-line. Some history:

Pioneer was formed by Don Mainland and F. Jerome Beere in 1965 as a small machine shop serving avionic firms. Interest in manned space flight and avionics was high at the beginning of the “space race.” The founders believed they were on the cusp of a new era – pioneers in the industry – so they aptly named the company Pioneer Products.

Don Mainland bought out his partner, but the Beere relationship continues. Son Jim Beere is president and grandson Jon Beere is now sales manager.

Pioneer purchased Petersen Machine Company in 1970 and merged the avionic forces of both companies. They began providing high-quality machining for foundries and equipment manufacturers. In the 1980s, customers were looking for vertically integrated suppliers, and Pioneer became a supplier of choice.

Today, Pioneer harnesses high-technology robotics and computer-operated systems to machine and assemble components. Engineers are using precision manufacturing to help customers around the world bring products to market at rocket-speed.

The pioneer spirit is alive and well at Racine’s Pioneer Products. After years of hearing about outsourcing manufacturing and the recession, isn’t it great to see an American company going full bore in manufacturing? From drive systems for urban busses to motor housings for hybrid autos, it’s Made in the U.S.A. and Made in Racine, Wisconsin.

Pioneer provides machining, assembly, and engineering services for components which are then packaged and shipped around the world. Pioneer encompasses two related businesses: Petersen Machine Company specializes in machined parts and castings for aerospace, and Letsch Manufacturing makes tooling and fixtures. Total sales have increased more than 20% so far this year [2011].

Based in a 115,000 sq. ft. facility with 280 employees on South Memorial Drive, Pioneer serves the automotive, medical, aerospace, recreational, and military markets. Major customers include BRP in Racine, Caterpillar, Chrysler, CNH, Cummins, Racine’s own DeltaHawk, Ford, GE Healthcare, Kohler, Navistar, Oshkosh Truck, PACCAR, Sundyne, Toyota, and many more.

President Jim Beere says, “We diversified during the recession, with new capabilities, new products, and new customers. In the long run, it’s made us stronger. We’re pleased to see manufacturing return to the U.S. because of our inventiveness, quality, and speed.”

I think maybe the "P" stands for either Petersen or Pioneer.

cudak888 

Whoops - thanks, Stan - it's Pioneer. Don't know what I was thinking of before.

This is the page on the Waterford site that makes the claim:

https://waterfordbikes.com/now/home.p...classic&Model=

-Kurt

well biked

Thanks for the info, that's interesting. I had wished there was a way to be fairly sure about who built my '71 Paramount frame, this seems to point strongly towards it being built in the cage in Chicago. I had thought that was probably the case since mine is an early '71 frame (April of that year).

Rabid Koala

I will do it when I get the opportunity when there is daylight, here is a large version of my avatar, a picture of the head lug on the 71 P13.

Metacortex

Nobody wants to talk to Don? <g>

cudak888 

Definitely Don's work. Note the same curvy smoothing done on the edges of the entire Nervex lug on my '72, especially on the point up front:



The Chicago frames no doubt had prepped lugs, but they didn't do them quite in the same manner.

-Kurt

Scooper

Here's M72274's top head lug (no "P" on BB shell). It's not nearly as clean as the brazing on the 953 Waterford, but that's probably not a fair comparison.

cudak888 

It's well done, but the filing looks different from the two Mainland lugs, wouldn't you say?

-Kurt

Scooper

Yep; it looks a little different.

well biked

Here's my April '71 P13-9, it has no P serial on the bb:

Scooper

The brazing on your bike is super clean. It looks like somebody overlooked those file makes during the pre-plating polishing, though. I'd guess from a foot away the file marks would be very hard to see.

Scooper

At the risk of a thread detour, here's the top head lug on the Waterford for comparison. The tubing and the lugs are polished stainless steel. It was brazed by Dave Wages (Ellis Cycles) just before he left Waterford to hang out his shingle.

well biked

Yeah, I'm not sure I can see them at all in person. Then I look at the pic and think, "hey, where'd those file marks come from?"

You're 953 Waterford is a beauty.