orangeology

making a long story short:
a frame came in. 2 obvious once-bent-and-tried-to-bend-it-back marks around where headtube meets the TT and DT.
not a damage from transit, as there's a rusty gap between the lug tip and the tube. it's been there for at least 10 yrs.
seller had seemed a decent guy, guessing from all communications and promptness. so.

1. emailed him first saying there are bent marks, and would like to return it for full refund.
2. seller says didn't notice, it must have been in transit and suggest me open a case w Ebay if i'd want a return/refund
3. open a case with Ebay, describing all situations. Ebay says it's no-return auction, but i'm in "Buyer Protection" program.
4. Ebay sends me a message that the seller 'responded'(whatever it means), and they are in 'investigation'. should the 'final decision' be made in 72 hours.

ok. so as smooth as it sounds—(i know i am not that positive on the result, knowing i'm already screwed)
here is my question out of curiosity?

what is the common configuration of Ebay's "Final Decision"?
ie) 'seller's right so shut up and build the bike with bent frame' or 'buyer is right so seller should accept return and refund the f$%^& money to the buyer' sorta verdict?
and how hard it can be in terms of 'enforcement'?
for instance, do they force seize the paypal money back from the seller if seller seems wrong?

i am not trying to put lotta expectations onto it, taking 100 bucks for a lesson fee.
just wondering if anyone been in a similar situation.

thanks

cudak888 

Make sure you indicate (if you're using a form box w/o attachements) that you have photos of the damage showing that it was pre-existing and not disclosed by the seller. If you're sending emails directly to an email address, attach these photos.

99.9% of the time, that "final decision" will work out in your favor.

-Kurt

Nerdy Norm

In my experience, as long as you follow the strict procedures regarding timeframe and so on, Ebay is always very much weighted towards the buyer.

And yes, they can and do debit the money from the seller's Paypal account. That's why you must have funding methods (like credit card, bank account) linked to Paypal - so they can charge that if the Paypal balance is zero.

BlueDevil63 

You will almost certainly win if you document the damage and that damage was not described or indicated in the auction. Failure to list something in the auction is not an excuse. Ebay expects sellers to describe any damage. The Ebay conflict resolution process is heavily weighted towards the buyer and you will likely get a full refund including shipping costs. You may have to return the frame however and may have to pay for return shipping.

orangeology

hmmm, sounds like it's more positive than i thought, then.
per @kurt: yes i did use form box w/o attachment, and did mention i had close-up photos.
it was mentioned in my messages to the seller too.
thanks, guys!

shame it is a '70's Bottecchia Carnielli frame with all chrome underneath the old paint...

Metacortex

I'm guessing it was this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/330744587576

jr59

Ebay/PP can and will place a lien against you as well.

Citoyen du Monde

If this is indeed the frame, I feel that Orangeology should at least in part accept part of the blame. When will it ever dawn upon people that there is no logical reason why a frame of this age should ever be without a fork. If the fork is not there, simply stay away. It is as simple as that. That Ebay/PP will side with the buyer every time is not the matter here, it is more a matter of owning up for one's lack of thought.

Sorry for the tough point of view Orangeology, but I feel it had to be said. I can assure you that many others are thinking the exact same thing but do not dare say it.

gomango

Agreed.

Sometimes it's simply better to just walk away, unless you are willing to turn these items into wall art.

orangeology

yes it was the very frame, and i do accept the part of the blame.
i knew i was taking a chance when i bid it,
being half skeptical at not seeing good photos around not only the headtube but also DOs.
it was not devastatingly expensive—i wasn't go forward if it was going to go over 60,
but it ended 59, dang—and i was like let's see.

in my impression, seller seemed decent to deal with.
with numbers of pos feedbacks—i know that means not much,
and kinda answered all questions with some dignity + promptness.
i know one shouldn't be too naive in the world of ebay, but hey.
you win and you lose everyday, right?
guess more important things is that you don't lose again with same mistake.

i do appreciate everyone's advice and concerns, and do feel i had a good lesson.
just wondering how ebay's gonna rule this out.
worst case, i am gonna weld this POS to a street sign or light stand whatever.

btw,
KURT(or anyone): how can i email ebay with attachments? mind telling me the secret?

thanks!

himespau 

Bummer, hope it gets resolved for you. To be honest that all caps all bold font had me turned off so that I couldn't read the text. That's what would have stopped me from bidding (well that and the size).

wrk101

+1 No fork = huge red flag.

+1 Super crappy ad, what's with this seller?

Also, seller has THREE negative feedbacks in the last year, which is actually pretty bad for his size. A seller moving as much product as this seller, should be a top rated seller if he is taking care of customers. The lack of top rated status to me is another red flag.

Last red flag is no return policy. If you want to get higher values for your ebay sales, you need to accept returns. Yes, an occasional item will come back, but the extra you make on each auction should more than cover it. And with ebay's liberal buyer protection plan, ebay is going to side with the buyer anyway. So why not just cooperate with the program, accept returns, and enjoy higher bidding on your sales? Seller does not understand ebay, despite his relatively high volume.

Finally, you cannot reach top rated seller status UNLESS you accept returns. So why bother? Well, first, as I explain above, you are going to end up taking items back anyway. Secondly, top rated status gives you a 20% discount on ebay final fees, and about 30% discount on postage. Those are pretty significant for an active seller. So an active seller that is not cooperating with ebay's top rated seller program? Big red flag to me.

I had a doofus seller once, on an expensive antique chandelier. Seller packed it terribly, so it arrived damaged. Contacted the seller, his response: "you should have paid extra for insurance." My response, "insurance only covers you when item is well packed, not poorly packed". So I went straight to ebay, and they immediately sided with me. It was pretty obvious.

Now despite all of this, at that price, maybe you take a flyer on the frame. I wouldn't unless I could pick it up locally. A local pickup? Sure, as I could inspect it immediately (and not pay for it if it was damaged).

due ruote 

I agree that there were plenty of red flags, but in fairness to the OP, the bike was described as in "good shape" and a "perfect restoration candidate." We can debate whether he should have bid on the item, but to me getting the refund should be a slam dunk. Either the seller overlooked fundamentally toxic damage, or committed fraud; take your pick.

himespau 

Wow, I didn't know any of these things (and did make a bad purchase in the past). Good to know what to look for next time.

Citoyen du Monde

In a perfect world, I think that the seller should refund your money for the frame with you being responsible for shipping, but I am pretty sure that you will get a full refund of teh purchase price plus shipping one way, with you needing to pay return shipping.

Poguemahone

With damage not described, you will likely get a full refund, and the bay will handle return shipping.

I bought a frame a while back that had undisclosed rust thru the top tube and shot (Italian) bottom bracket threads, both unmentioned in ad text and neither factor photographed, either. It probably helped that the seller was a screaming irrational tool, though. He continued bothering me after resolution and ebay eventually stripped away his power seller status. Now and again I run into his auctions, and he seems to be behaving himself since.

I had to leave a brutal neg on his feedback. He left a howling "positive" on mine; I would have gladly taken a neg from him, but ebay doesn't allow sellers to drop them anymore. I could get his "positive" removed, but it makes him look like a flaming idiot, so I left it.

Your seller seems much nicer, at least. Let the resolution play out-- I think he at least seems comfortable with the bay acting as a mediator, since he suggested it. Asking for a mediator is in my view positive behaviour.

Johnonaschwinn

It is real simple. item is not as desribed and the seller will have to accept the return. I am 98 percent positive. let us know

anixi

Well, at least you received the frame. My last frame, as some of you know, was a complete bust. let us know how it turns out, I'm certainly hopeful that you receive justice. BTW, if the frame doesn't need to be returned, you could sell it here. I would love to get a project like that. I know of a frame builder that just might take on such a project for me.

orangeology

got a pre-paid shipping label from ebay.
looks like it's going well. ebay says once the seller gets the frame back, it will be refunded.

will keep you guys posted what's gonna happen.
thanks for all concerns and advice, again.

miamijim

Can we see pics of the damage?

cudak888 

Hardly. I've bought at least 15+/- frames in the past minus fork without incident. If they weren't NOS frames (why should an NOS frame be missing a fork?), they were rough, used framesets in a similar condition - minus front-end damage - to the OP's frame. In the occasional case wherein I had the opportunity to find out the fate of the fork from the seller, I've found that they often wind up completing frames in better condition. Many of these forks were all-chrome and looked quite a bit better than their respective frames.

That said, the main photo in the auction would betray the headtube damage to a trained eye, but that's no excuse of ignorance from the seller.

-Kurt

orangeology

here they are:

storckm

I've sold a total of 1 item on e-bay. And I couldn't withdraw the money until the period for returns was over. But since this is a no-returns auction, I'm not sure.

orangeology

for those who've been wondering.
i had returned the frame and got a full refund issued by ebay.
ebay paid for the return shipping—sent me a prepaid label.
no need of updating tracking whatsoever, it was well taken care of.
didnt' have to haggle w the seller at all as well.
it's all good now, was a good lesson.

btw:
i see the same frame is re-listed with $99 BIN here:
it still does not mention the bents in that all-caps description.
just DONT FALL FOR IT.

thanks for all concerns and advices, again.

lostarchitect 

I contacted the seller about it and he changed the description.