Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-15-12, 03:26 PM   #1
Ed in Toronto
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ed in Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do steel lugged bikes go faster downhill than carbon fiber bikes?

I find that when I'm coasting down a long hill along side carbon fiber bikes also coasting, that my steel bike starts to increase speed over the carbon fiber bikes. I have to keep touching my brake so that I don't put my front wheel into their rear wheel. I don't like constantly touching the brakes down a long slope, so I eventually duck right down with my chin almost touching my stem for more wind resistance and pass a little quicker, to get it over with.

Or is something else going on, like I have less drag from my position in the saddle over them. They have dropped handle bars too, so I don't know. But then again, people with carbon bikes ride the hoods, and down a long hill I'm on the drops. But on the other hand they slam their stem down, and I have mine up somewhat. As you can see, I've been thinking about it, and maybe over thinking it. I don't like passing Cervelo bikes going down a long hill because I feel like their thinking, look at the guy with the old bike, he wants to be a champ and pass us, and the only time he can do that is going down a hill when we're taking a break and coasting.
Ed in Toronto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 03:33 PM   #2
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Heavier riders go downhill faster. Bike weight + rider weight applies here... If you're the same weight but your bike is heavier - you go downhill faster. Same with wheels... heavier wheels go down faster.

If it's about weight, unless the guy on the Cervelo is a moron he knows you're passing him because you're heavier, and he also knows he'll catch you AND pass you on the uphill.

BTW as both a clydesdale and a steel-bike rider I make it a rule to pass everyone downhill. Period. In a group I work my way to the front of a peloton before a climb, usually drop to the end of the peloton at the top (hopefully not totally dropped) then stay with them (or pass them) on the down...
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 03:48 PM   #3
Puget Pounder
Wookie Jesus inspires me.
 
Puget Pounder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lots of unfounded assumptions here. Too many variables here.
Puget Pounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 03:53 PM   #4
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puget Pounder View Post
Lots of unfounded assumptions here. Too many variables here.
If you mean my assumptions were unfounded - Yes, I made some assumptions...

I assume that 1) you have similar rolling resistance and 2) your hubs are as smooth as the next guy ... then if you're heavier and even remotely aero you're simply going to go faster downhill.

I'm one of the heaviest guys in my club, and there is nobody that touches me downhill unless they can get in my draft. Even then most don't have the nerve to maintain the speed.

The truth is gravity works.
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:04 PM   #5
cb400bill
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 12,223
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBeef View Post
... unless the guy on the Cervelo is a moron he knows you're passing him...
Unless he can't hear you. We had a new guy on our club ride last week. His Cervelo carbon bike frame was LOUD. Louder than any bike I have ever heard.
cb400bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:06 PM   #6
DVC45
Senior Member
 
DVC45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 3,841
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
His Cervelo carbon bike frame was LOUD. Louder than any bike I have ever heard.
Exploded?
DVC45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:07 PM   #7
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
Unless he can't hear you. We had a new guy on our club ride last week. His Cervelo carbon bike frame was LOUD. Louder than any bike I have ever heard.
The frame was loud? Or was he on those crazy loud fulcrum wheels? When coasting those freehubs are scary loud... I've never heard wheels louder than fulcrums...
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:09 PM   #8
Puget Pounder
Wookie Jesus inspires me.
 
Puget Pounder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Bikes:
Posts: 2,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBeef View Post
If you mean my assumptions were unfounded - Yes, I made some assumptions...

I assume that 1) you have similar rolling resistance and 2) your hubs are as smooth as the next guy ... then if you're heavier and even remotely aero you're simply going to go faster downhill.

I'm one of the heaviest guys in my club, and there is nobody that touches me downhill unless they can get in my draft. Even then most don't have the nerve to maintain the speed.

The truth is gravity works.
Hold your horses here. I'm not an idiot and I know more physics than the average person. I am talking about the original post. What does a lugged steel bike have to do with going faster than a carbon bike? Absolutely nothing.

The truth is, I never said gravity didn't work, but yes... it does work.

Smoother hubs, bearings, aero dynamics of the rider and components, wheels, weight, tires, tubes, rider position, helmet, etc... Yeah, a lot of things we can look at.
Puget Pounder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:24 PM   #9
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puget Pounder View Post
Hold your horses here. I'm not an idiot and I know more physics than the average person.
Wasn't implying you were an idiot... I think you took what I said out of context... I was simply clarifying my statement, not taking offense at yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puget Pounder View Post
Smoother hubs, bearings, aero dynamics of the rider and components, wheels, weight, tires, tubes, rider position, helmet, etc... Yeah, a lot of things we can look at.
Yup, every single one of those things plays a factor. For me, as a big guy (even lean I have a 48" chest - people love to draft off me) I found that aerodynamics plays the biggest factor... I played around with several positions for downhill until I found one that was aero, comfortable AND allowed me enough control to feel safe at speed ... Positioning alone adds 10-15km/h to my downhill speed on a long stretch.

Many smaller riders will grip the drops, shift forward, drop their hips/buttocks below the saddle just over the top tube and put their shoulders inside their handlebars - but I don't fit that way, so I favored the butt-back, hands on the inside/tops of the handlebar forehead to the stem approach. Heck, just ensuring your crankarms are parallel to the ground gets you another 1-2km/h in speed...

If the guys he's with are on the hoods and he's in the drops... that gives him a huge advantage alone.
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:36 PM   #10
cb400bill
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 12,223
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVC45 View Post
Exploded?
No, not exploded. It just sounded like an echo-y loud hollow plastic-y type of sound. Hard to describe, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBeef View Post
The frame was loud? Or was he on those crazy loud fulcrum wheels? When coasting those freehubs are scary loud... I've never heard wheels louder than fulcrums...
Could be, I don't know. I didn't check what wheels he was riding. If he is there this Monday, I'll check.
cb400bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:37 PM   #11
leftthread
Senior Member
 
leftthread's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Land of Cheese
Bikes:
Posts: 797
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
leftthread is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:42 PM   #12
Ed in Toronto
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ed in Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It might be aerodynamics, I'm not sure, was wondering if there is any concrete knowledge about weight of bikes effect on going down a hill.

I'm 6'2" and weight 195lbs.

I do ride the drops down a long hill, but my stem is 2' 1/2" up from being slammed.

The carbon bikes I pass seem to have woman and shorter lighter men, but then again I'm kind of tall.
Ed in Toronto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:46 PM   #13
calamarichris
Horse Categorie
 
calamarichris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Carlsbad, CA
Bikes: '09 Felt F55, '84 Masi Cran Criterium, (2)'86 Schwinn Pelotons, '86 Look Equippe Hinault, '09 Globe Live 3 (dogtaxi), 94 Greg Lemond, 99 GT Pulse Kinesis for Track
Posts: 5,905
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 95 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed in Toronto View Post
I have to keep touching my brake so that I don't put my front wheel into their rear wheel. I don't like constantly touching the brakes down a long slope, so I eventually duck right down with my chin almost touching my stem for more wind resistance and pass a little quicker, to get it over with.
The answer you seek resides within your question.

Also, the weight difference between frames is a fraction of the weight difference between the engines.
calamarichris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:48 PM   #14
oldskoolwrench
自転車整備士
 
oldskoolwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, Colorado USA
Bikes: '86 Moots Mountaineer, '94 Salsa Ala Carte, '94 S-Works FSR, 1983 Trek 600 & 620
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To the OP...

As everyone has said there are many variables to explain why, but personally I wouldn't worry about it or let it bother you,
especially what the other riders think. Pick 'em off one by one on the descents and have fun doing it. If they pass you on
the climbs, so what? Tell them you were enjoying the scenery; life's too short to appreciate the finer things, right?

I bet you were looking for a more technical response; I went for the more 'sociological' one.
oldskoolwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:52 PM   #15
aixaix 
car guy, recovering
 
aixaix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mount Vernon, NY
Bikes: Olympia Competizione & Special Piuma, Frejus track circa 1958, Dahon Helios, many others
Posts: 1,245
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
The truth is gravity works.
It works on all things equally, regardless of mass or density. You may be the heaviest and fastest downhill rider, but it isn't because gravity is treating you any differently than anybody else. Wind resistance & rolling friction are the variables here.
__________________
Michael Shiffer
EuroMeccanicany.com
aixaix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:56 PM   #16
thenomad
Riding like its 1990
 
thenomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: IE, SoCal
Bikes:
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
the weight difference may be along the 3-5 lb range, so hubs, aero and body weight make up more. If you have empty bottles and they have two large full ones then all is equal.

if you are drafting you certainly will catch them unless you are a feather.
If you put your chin on the stem then you'll decrease wind resistance for more aero and go faster etc.

Maybe
thenomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 04:57 PM   #17
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Posts: 5,573
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
And what about TIG welded steel bikes?
Reynolds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:06 PM   #18
iab 
Senior Member
 
iab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Bikes:
Posts: 8,822
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 294 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed in Toronto View Post
I have to keep touching my brake so that I don't put my front wheel into their rear wheel.
That's called drafting. Less wind resistance = increased speed.
iab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:13 PM   #19
thenomad
Riding like its 1990
 
thenomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: IE, SoCal
Bikes:
Posts: 3,774
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
And what about TIG welded steel bikes?
Easy answer = slower.

Why? = More 'ugly' to overcome
thenomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:19 PM   #20
Amesja
Cottered Crank
 
Amesja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Chicago
Bikes: 1954 Raleigh Sports 1974 Raleigh Competition 1969 Raleigh Twenty 1964 Raleigh LTD-3
Posts: 3,496
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Mr. Galileo was correct...

-How 'bout that?
Amesja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:27 PM   #21
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iab View Post
That's called drafting. Less wind resistance = increased speed.
X2

Stay glued to their wheel long enough and you will get a false sense of your ability. I've been on group rides where I felt great but instantly ran out of gas when I went out to pull.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:47 PM   #22
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
It works on all things equally, regardless of mass or density. You may be the heaviest and fastest downhill rider, but it isn't because gravity is treating you any differently than anybody else. Wind resistance & rolling friction are the variables here.
That is true, but without gravity there would be no acceleration, thus no speed difference.
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:49 PM   #23
AlbertaBeef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
And what about TIG welded steel bikes?
Obviously they have even MORE of an aero advantage...
AlbertaBeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:51 PM   #24
jettore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Bikes: 85 Peugeot Canyon Express, 73? Torpado, 85 Trek 400
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OP - Are you passing riders in a group you are riding with or are you talking about just passing random people you come up on while riding? It isn't really clear in your post.
jettore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-12, 05:58 PM   #25
Ed in Toronto
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Ed in Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jettore View Post
OP - Are you passing riders in a group you are riding with or are you talking about just passing random people you come up on while riding? It isn't really clear in your post.
Just random people. I'm riding around in the city, and you don't see groups there.
Ed in Toronto is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:29 AM.