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Old 08-14-12, 10:54 AM   #1
The Thin Man 
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Migrating from Suntour Cyclone to 1st gen Dura-Ace

I am interested in changing out a groupset from an older Centurion (1976). It currently sports early Suntour Cyclone pieces including a 5 speed Winner freewheel. I want to change the entire groupset to 1st generation Dura-Ace. The Dura-Ace freewheel is 6 speed and the Suntour Sprint hubs (which are the only items that will stay Suntour) are spaced at 126mm. Since this is a friction setup, does anyone see any compatibility issues or other red flags I am missing?

I figured it may be a good idea to consult the group before starting the tear down and build up. You know, just in case.

Current Suntour Cyclone Setup


Proposed Dura-Ace Setup
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Old 08-14-12, 11:10 AM   #2
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The only problem I see is it won't have Cyclone on it anymore. Not that there's anything wrong with DA.
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Old 08-14-12, 11:20 AM   #3
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Since I have a complete 1st Gen DA set "lying around", I figured it would be a period appropriate and tasteful upgrade. Of course, the hub issue bothers me as I would like to keep all parts of a group together. However, my only other wheel option is a set of Campy Record hubs mated with VO PBP wheels. Of course, that doesn't match either but it would at least keep the Suntour group together. What to do, what to do...
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Old 08-14-12, 11:25 AM   #4
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It'll work fine, yeah. I believe what you have pictured and described is 2nd Gen Dura Ace.
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Old 08-14-12, 11:34 AM   #5
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It'll work fine, yeah. I believe what you have pictured and described is 2nd Gen Dura Ace.
Good to know, on both fronts. Thanks!
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Old 08-14-12, 11:37 AM   #6
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I'm liking the existing Cyclone setup you have more than the DA, specially at the crankset. Unless you get the DA crankset with the black drilliumed (dimpled) rings, the Cyclone with its crank spider cutouts I see in your pic has the DA beat hands down in looks. I doubt if there will be any difference in actual performance on the road between the two.

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Old 08-14-12, 11:38 AM   #7
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Definitely not first gen - I think the first gen DA was labeled Crane. You might technically have the 3rd gen.

I love the early Cyclone groups and those are in very good shape. Not sure the DA is an upgrade.
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Old 08-14-12, 11:43 AM   #8
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Please report back your findings regarding performance. My gut tells me the only the only real performance upgrade your going to get is from the freewheel. But I would love to hear how they compare from your experience.

BTW, are those Suntour Sprint hubs original? I didn't think those were produced until the early/mid 1980's, but I'm probably mistaken.
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Old 08-14-12, 11:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chombi View Post
I'm liking the existing Cyclone setup you have more than the DA, specially at the crankset. Unless you get the DA crankset with the black drilliumed (dimpled) rings, the Cyclone with its crank spider cutouts I see in your pic has the DA beat hands down in looks. I doubt if there will be any difference in actual performance on the road between the two.
Actually, the black is what I was interested in removing. It looks nice but I felt the bike could benefit from an all chrome setup. The crank itself is a Sugino. I was planning on reusing it but replacing the current black chain rings with brushed DA's. Still, your points are well taken and keeping it with the Cyclone would save quite a bit of time and extra $.

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Definitely not first gen - I think the first gen DA was labeled Crane. You might technically have the 3rd gen.
I love the early Cyclone groups and those are in very good shape. Not sure the DA is an upgrade.
Again, good to know. This is why I love this forum. Thanks!

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Please report back your findings regarding performance. My gut tells me the only the only real performance upgrade your going to get is from the freewheel. But I would love to hear how they compare from your experience.

BTW, are those Suntour Sprint hubs original? I didn't think those were produced until the early/mid 1980's, but I'm probably mistaken.
I'm still not 100% sure I am going to go this route. The peer pressure from the group is hard to ignore and it would cost more time/money to migrate.
As for the hubs, they are actually replacement wheels. The PO mentioned that a woman clipped him while he was on the bike slightly bending the front wheel. She offered to buy new replacement wheels so these are not original. Nice catch, acoffin!
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Old 08-14-12, 01:18 PM   #10
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There's nothing wrong with trying out a groupset swap, but I have to side with the peer pressure. I have that bike in that color and I think the performance and appearance of the Cyclone & Sugino stuff is hard to beat. I'd look for some sweet frameset begging for your DA group.
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Old 08-14-12, 01:22 PM   #11
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Cyclone is cooler and has the slant parallelogram so should work better for shifting up to a lower gear, but it has weak return spring. The cyclone is lighter. There should be no compatibility issues.
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Old 08-14-12, 01:30 PM   #12
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I have a lot of the parts if you're down to trade.
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Old 08-14-12, 01:30 PM   #13
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Suntour and Sugino were both part of the JEX group, so bikes from the 70's with Suntour groupsets had Sugino cranks (rarely rebranded as "Suntour").

I've had two bikes with Suntour Cyclone and one with Shimano Dura-Ace (2. gen). All were properly set up. DA from that era was not a noticable improvement upon Cyclone. Suntour shifters, in particular, were just better. Also liked that both front and rear shifter worked in the same direction. Matter of taste I guess.

Even more, you have the first generation Cyclone which in my opinion was the best one. The rear derailleur is extremely light at about 175 grams. In 1976 Cyclone was Suntour's top dog, I believe they made it heavier later on so as not to compete with the new flagship Superbe.
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Old 08-14-12, 01:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
Cyclone is cooler and has the slant parallelogram so should work better for shifting up to a lower gear, but it has weak return spring.
My first generation Cyclone has the strongest return spring of any derailleur I have ever used. Go figure.

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Old 08-14-12, 01:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloBrox View Post
Suntour and Sugino were both part of the JEX group, so bikes from the 70's with Suntour groupsets had Sugino cranks (rarely rebranded as "Suntour").

I've had two bikes with Suntour Cyclone and one with Shimano Dura-Ace (2. gen). All were properly set up. DA from that era was not a noticable improvement upon Cyclone. Suntour shifters, in particular, were just better. Also liked that both front and rear shifter worked in the same direction. Matter of taste I guess.

Even more, you have the first generation Cyclone which in my opinion was the best one. The rear derailleur is extremely light at about 175 grams. In 1976 Cyclone was Suntour's top dog, I believe they made it heavier later on so as not to compete with the new flagship Superbe.
Great info! The evidence and persuasion from the group is tough to ignore. I am starting to believe I should clean up the Cyclone groupset and use that instead of the DA, although, I believe I would like to move away from the Suntour bar-ends it came with and use clamp on downtube shifters. Any thoughts on which set would be period appropriate? My guess is something like this.
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Old 08-14-12, 01:52 PM   #16
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I've always loved Suntour Power Shifters: http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...m=104&AbsPos=8

However they appeared with the Sprint groupset in the 80's.

For total correctness you need these babies: http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...=104&AbsPos=13

EDIT: If your bar-end shifters have the ratching mechanism they could very well function better than the downtube shifters of that period, which used pure friction. Of course, not everyone digs the placement and long cable bar-ends entail...

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Old 08-14-12, 02:30 PM   #17
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I've always loved Suntour Power Shifters: http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...m=104&AbsPos=8
I was going to post the same ones. Velobase is wrong on the date for those though- they were around since the mid 70s so would be period correct. The ratcheting mech is what makes the shifters great.
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Old 08-14-12, 02:55 PM   #18
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Thanks for the info, I learn something every day!
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Old 08-14-12, 08:13 PM   #19
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I bought a 1977 Volare that had been repainted. I replaced the first generation Dura Ace with black Cyclone derailleurs, Super Mighty crank and somewhat later Superbe brakes because they look badass. Extra points for excellent shifting!



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Old 08-14-12, 08:23 PM   #20
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A drool-worthy bike as always, Colonel - but do you dare ride on that duraluminium freewheel?
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Old 08-14-12, 08:34 PM   #21
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A drool-worthy bike as always, Colonel - but do you dare ride on that duraluminium freewheel?
I was just kidding around earlier. I don't discriminate against materials. However, I'm pretty sure the Suntour Ultra cogs are steel.
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Old 08-15-12, 06:27 AM   #22
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I'd stay with the SunTour set up, myself. Nothing wrong with Shimano, I have an all 105 R500 I let my son ride now that I built up. I am partial to SunTour because I owned a set of the then new Superbe line's brakes. Put them on a sweet Raleigh to replace the Weinemann centerpulls (the only non campy parts) and fell in love with the strength and engineering details on them. Still like a lot of the SunTour parts for C&V bikes and they always worked flawlessly for me.

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Old 08-15-12, 10:06 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeloBrox View Post
For total correctness you need these babies: http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...=104&AbsPos=13

EDIT: If your bar-end shifters have the ratching mechanism they could very well function better than the downtube shifters of that period, which used pure friction. Of course, not everyone digs the placement and long cable bar-ends entail...
My bar end shifters are missing the expansion piece thus rendering them useless until I find a set, however, I do like the clamp style above, although finding them may be prove quite a challenge.

Oh, and Colonel, gorgeous combination of parts on your Volare.
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Old 08-15-12, 10:25 AM   #24
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1970s For Certain

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I was going to post the same ones. Velobase is wrong on the date for those though- they were around since the mid 70s so would be period correct. The ratcheting mech is what makes the shifters great.
Those shifters were stock on my 1977 Fuji S-10S. I installed period ratchet bar cons to the S-10S and moved the power shifter DTs to my 1982 Fuji Team. They are great shifters, and resist ghost upshifts very well. The feel is great...three small clicks per shift (6-speed)...click,click,cli..[shift]...aaaaahhhh.
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Old 08-15-12, 10:44 AM   #25
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Those Cyclone derailleurs are clearly defective and dangerous. I sepcialize in removing such threats for the protection of humanity. So if you send them to me I'll see that they are disposed of properly.
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