Thinking about switching to 5-speed -- is this madness?
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Half stepping with 5 speed is something I regularly do with my Miyata 1000 on the top two rings. You might need a new chainring to make your math work. Other than needing to pay attention, I really don't lose much as compared to a compact double. As a bonus, I get to keep it more or less original, yet pick up decent gearing range and reasonable steps. I don't know why they didn't set it up for half stepping from the factory, but with a new middle ring it's great. The 5 speed spacing is really a natural for me, whereas 6 and 7 speed get a little more precise than I can always attend to.
Doh, just saw your update from the original. You're halfway there on the half stepping
Doh, just saw your update from the original. You're halfway there on the half stepping
Last edited by Chrome Molly; 12-07-12 at 07:38 PM.
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If I read you correctly, iab, you're suggesting a multiple freewheel on each side of a flip-flop hub? (That would be a trip!) Or just to use that hub to get closer to zero dish?
Anyways, I haven't gone half-step with this bike...yet. Still have the 52/42 double up front. That plus the 14-28T freewheel gives "10-speed-ish" gearing of 40-100" or so. I'm thinking that a 52/39 double with the 15-24T freewheel would give a decent range for longer rides. Not sure if I'm man enough to try half-step with the 15-24T though.
And yep, BianchiGirll, that's the Premio! Still in great working shape but I need to do something about these rust spots before too long.
Anyways, I haven't gone half-step with this bike...yet. Still have the 52/42 double up front. That plus the 14-28T freewheel gives "10-speed-ish" gearing of 40-100" or so. I'm thinking that a 52/39 double with the 15-24T freewheel would give a decent range for longer rides. Not sure if I'm man enough to try half-step with the 15-24T though.
And yep, BianchiGirll, that's the Premio! Still in great working shape but I need to do something about these rust spots before too long.
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Originally Posted by noglider
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So this might be kind of a dumb idea/thread, but when I rebuilt the rear wheel on my '88 Bianchi (6-speed, 126mm), I felt it was kind of a shame to unbalance the spoke tensions so much to dish the wheel. It occurred to me recently that since I don't need super-close gears for the riding I do (commuting, randonneuring, and group rides), I could switch to a 5-speed cluster and move 5mm worth of spacers to the NDS. Despite being obsolete for 40 years or so, there's still plenty of 5-speed freewheels around, and I could have a nearly-symmetrical wheel.
Has anyone here done this? Or should I just quit thinking about it and ride my bike?
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott
Thinking about switching to 5-speed -- is this madness?
Disclaimer: if done for reasons of Fredness, I've seen way more labor intensive
stuff done with less justification.
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No. Traditional use of the hub. With a 115mm, you will get a single cog on the fixed side and a 4-speed freewheel on the other for 5 speeds total.
#33
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Thermio, after you've ridden this bike for a while report back how you like the gearing.
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#34
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I also don't understand. If the bike as new was 126 mm and your wheel is built on the original hub and the hub has not been respaced, that setup as new could work with 5-speed, Ultra-6, standard 6, and many 7-speed freewheels.
As iab says, many people have used wheels dished this way with good reliability and durability, though it is theoretically weaker than 5-speed/120 mm.
If you change the freewheel from an original 6 or 7 (7's were mostly narrower-spaced than standard 6's), the chainline is not affected. If you install a 5-speed, the center of the cluster moves inboard by half of the cog-to-cog pitch, or about 3 mm. Big to big is no worse than before, and small to small is better than with a 6 or 7.
I see you're an RUSA member, so very long-distance does need better reliability than a "just ride around" bike. But your own experience should indicate if 126 wheels are not strong enough for you.
If you're going to reduce to 5-speed for better strength, consider also cold-setting the frame down to 120 mm, re-spacing the hub, and shortening the rear axle. Essentially make the whole bike more compatible with the old 5-speed system. Now a 10-speed (2x5) half-step becomes really feasible (if you don't need a wide range!) if you have a freewheel with appropriate spacing. If you understand the math of a half-step and can evaluate the imperfections, there a few nearly-perfect 2x5s that you can discover. I don't know what kind of gear range you need - many distance rider seem to like (well, Heine seems to, at least) something like 94 inches down to 29 inches.
I'm going to roam off-topic and suggest some specific half-step designs that are free or nearly free from overlap or duplication. I can't guarantee that any of them can be built with readily-available freewheels or parts. All are based on 650b Hetres, 668 mm diameter at least on my bike.
One that seems nice to me is 14-17-21-26-32 paired with a 50-45. With 650bx42 wheels (diameter 668 mm) this gives a range from 37 inches to 95 inches, with incremental steps between 4.3 inches and 9.7 inches, increasing monotonically. For a somewhat wider range, about the lowest you can get is 12-16-21-27-36 and 43-37, which gives a range of 27 to 95 inches, and has nearly monotonic increments of 4.3 to 13.0 inches. It will have pretty big steps. It also requires a Rene Herse or TA Cyclotourist crankset with selected sprockets, a search for exotic rear cogs, and a bud who can build freewheels (Pastor Bob?). But a Duopar should be able to shift it ... Hmm I may try this if I score a Urago frame or something French and vintage like that!
One of the most even setups is 14-16-18-21-24 with a 50-47 chain set. The gear range would be 95 to 52, with steps of 3.7 to 6.4 nearly-monotonic. With such close rear-spacing you get small incremental steps (close ratios are a good thing for constant-cadence folks!) pretty much regardless of the monotonicity.
With a Herse or TA crankset you could add a granny for nearly any low gear you need, at least if you can abide some lazy shifts from the granny to the middle ring. With a 26 tooth granny (TA minimum) you'd get a bottom end of 29 inches, and with a 24 tooth (Rene Herse) you'd get 26.5 inches. But you'd also have 20+ teeth between the granny and the middle ring, so that shift would be very iffy. You'd also have to cross-chain between the granny and the 14 to get an even jump between 49 and 52. A better choice might be a 32 tooth granny, but now the total range is 35 to 95, with very tight and even spacing, no cross-chaining, and only two lost gears on the granny.
I'd probably only do these triples on a 700c with 28 mm tires to ease the issue of getting low Q with good chainstay clearances. If you're going to try to do any of these, keep in mind it's easier to build oddball cranks than oddball freewheels. If you have any freewheels that match the above, go that route. I can help you with calculations if you like.
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If you change the freewheel from an original 6 or 7 (7's were mostly narrower-spaced than standard 6's), the chainline is not affected. If you install a 5-speed, the center of the cluster moves inboard by half of the cog-to-cog pitch, or about 3 mm. Big to big is no worse than before, and small to small is better than with a 6 or 7.
Granted, I don't quite understand the point of re-dishing a 126mm hub for 5-speed; that's what 120's were used for back in the day without issue. No point to it.
-Kurt
P.S.: Madness? This is Sparta! (Sorry, had to).
#36
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I like the suggestion of Fredliness as a justification for doing all this!
Yes, I've seen the differences in gap, too, but not even on BF have we tried to catalog the dimensional differences. That would require an entire Subforum for a year at least.
Yes, I've seen the differences in gap, too, but not even on BF have we tried to catalog the dimensional differences. That would require an entire Subforum for a year at least.
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Would you settle for Uniglide (Hyperglide's predecessor)?
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#38
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Haha, guilty. I broke a spoke when retruing the original wheel (I've since learned to loosen ancient spoke nipples first to make sure they'll turn), so I had decided an upgrade to stainless double-butted spokes was in order. I've never broken a spoke while riding, so this whole thing is just about playing around. I do have an affinity for parts that are stronger/more stable than they need to be, though.
Ah, now I get it -- much like the bike that Six Jours built up to replicate 1930's racing bikes. I'll have to think about that.
Road Fan, now that you mention it, I do have access to one of those Schwinn 14-32T freewheels. If there was ever a FW that begged for half-step, that's it.
As for respacing the bike to 120mm, I probably won't do that. That would reintroduce the dish I had dialed-out of this wheel, and if I do anything else with this bike in the future, it'll be to switch to a 7-speed freehub.
Originally Posted by iab
No. Traditional use of the hub. With a 115mm, you will get a single cog on the fixed side and a 4-speed freewheel on the other for 5 speeds total.
Road Fan, now that you mention it, I do have access to one of those Schwinn 14-32T freewheels. If there was ever a FW that begged for half-step, that's it.
As for respacing the bike to 120mm, I probably won't do that. That would reintroduce the dish I had dialed-out of this wheel, and if I do anything else with this bike in the future, it'll be to switch to a 7-speed freehub.
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RUSA #7498
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
Last edited by ThermionicScott; 12-08-12 at 11:11 AM.
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I read the Wikipedia article on monotonic sets, and am no more enlightened than I was before. Can you describe this in layman's terms?
Also, if you have access to a lot of freewheels, it might be possible to build a 5-speed freewheel with narrow spacers for an Ultra 5, rendering a nearly dishless wheel possible in 126mm. I think you'd need a short freewheel body like the Maillard Course to really make this work, though.
Also, if you have access to a lot of freewheels, it might be possible to build a 5-speed freewheel with narrow spacers for an Ultra 5, rendering a nearly dishless wheel possible in 126mm. I think you'd need a short freewheel body like the Maillard Course to really make this work, though.
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I'm just a math minor , but I see that the progressions are very even for the gearing schemes that Road Fan lays out, especially the 50-45/14-17-21-26-32. It has 11% jumps from bottom to top, except for one 9%. Perhaps that is what was meant by "monotonic." 50-47/14-16-18-21-24 has some nice small jumps, too, and would be even better if I put the 14-16-18-21-24-28 freewheel back on. 45-95", with jumps between 6 and 10%.
That said, I really need to spend more time riding and less time geeking out modifying my bikes.
That said, I really need to spend more time riding and less time geeking out modifying my bikes.
#42
What??? Only 2 wheels?
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Well, technically, it means that the function keeps going in the same direction or stays the same, but never goes the other way. For example, it could be 14-15-15-16-18-20. "Strictly monotonic" would mean no two adjacent values are the same, which rules out the 15-15 combination. If it wasn't monotonic at all it could be, for example, 14-15-15-13-17-19. Kinda' silly, IMHO, but people do strange things with their gearing sometimes.
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#45
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Well, technically, it means that the function keeps going in the same direction or stays the same, but never goes the other way. For example, it could be 14-15-15-16-18-20. "Strictly monotonic" would mean no two adjacent values are the same, which rules out the 15-15 combination. If it wasn't monotonic at all it could be, for example, 14-15-15-13-17-19. Kinda' silly, IMHO, but people do strange things with their gearing sometimes.
And don't worry, zach, if I get bored with this setup, or it fails to do the job, a 7-speed freehub is what I'd be using next. I bet most cyclists, after receiving this bike from eBay, would have ditched the freewheel setup right away.
#46
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The thing to realize is that the hubs and wheels we use were designed for 120 spacing and 5 speeds and work well with 126 spacings and 6-7 speeds although you get a wheel with more and more dish while these old 5 speed set ups were almost 0 dish wheels.
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Because we're better than that, that's why.
"Stronger?" Stronger-- how? A wheel with next to no dish is stronger than a wheel with a lot.
Cartridge bearings are overrated. The 'seals' on the cartridges are sourced from the electric-motor industry, don't keep out moisture worth a... toot, and are often under-lubricated with bearings as rough as Grade 300.
More gears? Well, let's look at this for a second: Refer to the chart below:
On the left, a typical 14-28 half-step setup. On the right, a typical factory 12-26 compact double.
[h=2]Output Chart:[/h]
The 5-speed setup has 10 distinct gears with no repetition and no duplicates. The 9-speed setup has like 12 gear ratios with a ton of duplication; the low is barely lower, and there's a bunch of stuff up top you can't use for any length of time unless you're a Cat 4 or better. The sole saving grace is that the steps through the gears in the 65-90 gear-inch range are a little tighter. There's no logic to the pattern, so you'd have to memorize the whole chart and then do a bunch of weird shifting to take full advantage of the gear pattern.
So you're paying more money for a weaker wheel, fewer gears that are actually useable in the real world, has butt-ugly aesthetics and is engineered to fail in 5 years or less.
Why? That's why.
Last edited by Captain Blight; 12-10-12 at 02:36 AM.
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+1
My 5 speed stag head shimano system is easily the strongest system (from wheel to pedal) that I've ever experienced on a bike. No way to test that in my "laboratory", but what I see and feel convinces me of it.
Cassette ratios often seem to be ones where you have a range of gears on each ring, then go to the next ring for another range. Half stepping is mating the front and rear together. Each has significant advantages. In the case of half stepping, one of the significant ones is the need to get the useful range described above without spending the $'s to "upgrade" an older bike that is perfectly smooth and easy to shift across a 5 speed freewheel.
For me the real beauty of a modern 8 speed cassette system is rarely leveraged. That would be something like an MTB triple on front with close ratio cassette on back yielding many distinct combinations that could easily be used with 5-10% changes across a wide range. It seems the modern set ups all have highs that are too high, and lows that are barely low enough with a ton of overlap that yields speed as the only real advantage.
So in the end, it is winter now and I'm also in full geeking out modifying my bikes mode...
My 5 speed stag head shimano system is easily the strongest system (from wheel to pedal) that I've ever experienced on a bike. No way to test that in my "laboratory", but what I see and feel convinces me of it.
Cassette ratios often seem to be ones where you have a range of gears on each ring, then go to the next ring for another range. Half stepping is mating the front and rear together. Each has significant advantages. In the case of half stepping, one of the significant ones is the need to get the useful range described above without spending the $'s to "upgrade" an older bike that is perfectly smooth and easy to shift across a 5 speed freewheel.
For me the real beauty of a modern 8 speed cassette system is rarely leveraged. That would be something like an MTB triple on front with close ratio cassette on back yielding many distinct combinations that could easily be used with 5-10% changes across a wide range. It seems the modern set ups all have highs that are too high, and lows that are barely low enough with a ton of overlap that yields speed as the only real advantage.
So in the end, it is winter now and I'm also in full geeking out modifying my bikes mode...
#49
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This whole thread basically covers the same arguments that I considered when switching to internally geared hubs; and I mean the old Sturmey Archer ones, not the new hi-tech ones.
A simple AW three speed, for example, might give you 52, 70, and 93 gear inches. That's a slightly narrower range than you get with a five speed freewheel and a double chain ring, with larger steps; but you also have a greatly simplified drive train with no derailleurs, a perfectly straight chain line, and almost no dish at all. A slightly more complicated S5 five speed reduces the steps slightly and increases the range to 46 inches low and 103 inches high; wider than the five speed freewheel system being discussed.
The bigger steps are a bit disconcerting at first, but you get used to it. You necessarily learn to widen your power band, as with a single speed bike. In a pace line, where you have to match the other riders' speed, this can be pretty challenging. But on a solo ride, where you can set your own pace, that problem disappears. I find the ride more enjoyable: you shift a lot less, which means you pay a lot less attention to the bike and more to your surroundings.
To be sure, there is a tradeoff. Derailleurs vs hub gears both have distinct advantages and distinct disadvantages. But it is really hard for me to tell whether I let my gear determine my riding style, or just the opposite.
A simple AW three speed, for example, might give you 52, 70, and 93 gear inches. That's a slightly narrower range than you get with a five speed freewheel and a double chain ring, with larger steps; but you also have a greatly simplified drive train with no derailleurs, a perfectly straight chain line, and almost no dish at all. A slightly more complicated S5 five speed reduces the steps slightly and increases the range to 46 inches low and 103 inches high; wider than the five speed freewheel system being discussed.
The bigger steps are a bit disconcerting at first, but you get used to it. You necessarily learn to widen your power band, as with a single speed bike. In a pace line, where you have to match the other riders' speed, this can be pretty challenging. But on a solo ride, where you can set your own pace, that problem disappears. I find the ride more enjoyable: you shift a lot less, which means you pay a lot less attention to the bike and more to your surroundings.
To be sure, there is a tradeoff. Derailleurs vs hub gears both have distinct advantages and distinct disadvantages. But it is really hard for me to tell whether I let my gear determine my riding style, or just the opposite.
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