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  1. #1
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    does a 120mm spaced cassette hub exist for multiple cogs?

    Im strapped to a 120mm spacing

    I would love to build a wheel with those nice tight UG IG cogs.
    Im running a 5 speed freewheel, and the ultra 6 just wont work because of dated cog profiles,
    I have tried all kinds of chains
    the only solution to get 6 or maybe even 7 is casette or try to find a shimano sis 5 speed-which most likely also dos not exist.

    mike
    My name is Michael, and I am a recovering bike addict, It has been 11 months since I purchased a bicycle for myself..
    (Im bound to fall off the wagon again, its just a matter of time)
    Lord help me!

    "Some cream crackers, a glue gun and a little imagination can turn any domestic cat into a fearsome Stegosaurus."

  2. #2
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
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    SunRace makes a 5 speed 14-28 freewheel with Hyperglide cogs. Done.
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  3. #3
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Since the difference between "regular" and "ultra" spacing is in the spacers, would it be possible to cram 6 cogs onto a 5-speed freewheel with narrower spacers? Or would that plan fall apart with the outer cogs?
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    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
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    I'm fairly certain there was a 120mm UG hub back in the day. You could always respace a 126 down to 120. A trick setup would be to start with a 126mm HG hub, remove spacing from the gear side untill the chain hits the stay/dropout then add 1mm. From there go to the non-gear side and space down to 120mm.
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  5. #5
    WNG
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    Spin Forest! Spin! WNG's Avatar
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    The Colonel beat me to it. I just took off a rusted Sunrace 5 speed HG freewheel from a 24" wheeled kids' mtb that I picked up for parts. So, at least these exist.
    Other option, find an old/used Uniglide 6 speed freehub, respace it and cut off the excess axle length. I think a 7 speed freehub would yield too severe a dish at 120mm OLD.
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    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I've put modern 6-speed freewheels on bikes with 120mm spacing, and in some cases the standard-spaced 6s freewheel fit on the bike's stock rear hub with no modification to the axle spacing.

    Going from there, there is a lot of minor tweaking that can be done to the axle spacers and wheel dish that will let you put even a 7s hG freewheel into a 120mm frame with still no difficulty slifing the wheel in.

    I re-did the axle spacing and dish on this wheel for my early PX10, and still used the stock 5sp axle! It's nice and strong and the 7sp freewheel plays nice with a pair of 8s Ergo Shifters.

  7. #7
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    I showed this pic before but here it is again
    I got the ultra 6 in there but due the distance between the BB and the rear axle the chain is far more angled then on a 700 wheeled bike
    the falcon7 and shimano body are just too wide to fit in there.


    this is what i got:


    here is some comparison

    regina 5 ultra 6 falcon 7 shimano 7
    Last edited by puchfinnland; 08-16-12 at 01:58 PM.
    My name is Michael, and I am a recovering bike addict, It has been 11 months since I purchased a bicycle for myself..
    (Im bound to fall off the wagon again, its just a matter of time)
    Lord help me!

    "Some cream crackers, a glue gun and a little imagination can turn any domestic cat into a fearsome Stegosaurus."

  8. #8
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    2, the hybrid hub that Brompton has used for many years , uses 2 external cogs on a 3 speed IGH. for 6 speeds

    They had Sachs as a supplier , AW , 3 spline cogs,
    [I use the 15t on my AW3. every 5th tooth is short for shifting.)

    now Sturmey makes their hubs, half steps the 3 internal gears
    Shimano BMX spline same as S3X uses..

    stock is a 13, 15, new 2 speed hubs without IGH are sold as 12, 16t pair

    28 hole.. fine for the 16" wheel..
    Last edited by fietsbob; 08-16-12 at 02:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
    Since the difference between "regular" and "ultra" spacing is in the spacers, would it be possible to cram 6 cogs onto a 5-speed freewheel with narrower spacers? Or would that plan fall apart with the outer cogs?
    Any 7-speed Dura-Ace or Sante 7sp freewheel can be run as a narrower 6-speed "Ultra" freewheel, no need to change any spacers.
    You only have to remove the smallest, externally-threaded cog and fond a rubber o-ring to snap into the exposed gap.

    Any 126mm 7-speed Shimano freehub is instantly made into a 124mm freehub just by removing the 1mm washer from each end of the axle assembly, so no re-dishing required and the wheel fits easily into a narrower frame.
    A bit of additional spacing can be removed from the left end as well, further narrowing the hub with almost-negligible effect on dish, and that's still with 7 speeds on there. Using a 6-speed cassette could easily allow further symmetrical narrowing of the axle assembly, enough to slip right into a 120mm frame with perhaps a 122mm axle assembly. A couple of millimeters of chainstay splay doesn't have a meaningful effect on anything.

  10. #10
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    the ultra 6 just wont work because of dated cog profiles,
    I have tried all kinds of chains
    I have an ultra-6 chain, yes it says ultra-6 right on the side, made by (well probably made for) suntour. If you really want to use that ultra 6 then send me a PM for details, though I leave for 2.5 weeks of vacation in about 5 hours... the chain measures less than 25% wear on my checker (filzer brand).. i.e. no measurable wear.
    1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

  11. #11
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I never cease to be amazed by how much the shifting on an Ultra-6 freewheel is improved by using a 9sp chain.

  12. #12
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    I showed this pic before but here it is again
    I got the ultra 6 in there but due the distance between the BB and the rear axle the chain is far more angled then on a 700 wheeled bike
    That looks like a 700c wheel, did I miss something? What size of wheel are you putting this on?
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  13. #13
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    the shimano body is too wide to fit-look at pic above
    -sombody please prove me wrong and show me a narrow body!

    thanks for the offer on the chain but I cant even get a 10spd chain to work on my arrangement.

    the only way is to build a UG-ultra 6 if the narrow body exists.
    My name is Michael, and I am a recovering bike addict, It has been 11 months since I purchased a bicycle for myself..
    (Im bound to fall off the wagon again, its just a matter of time)
    Lord help me!

    "Some cream crackers, a glue gun and a little imagination can turn any domestic cat into a fearsome Stegosaurus."

  14. #14
    MIKE is my name! puchfinnland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
    That looks like a 700c wheel, did I miss something? What size of wheel are you putting this on?

    its a 24" junior roadbike.
    My name is Michael, and I am a recovering bike addict, It has been 11 months since I purchased a bicycle for myself..
    (Im bound to fall off the wagon again, its just a matter of time)
    Lord help me!

    "Some cream crackers, a glue gun and a little imagination can turn any domestic cat into a fearsome Stegosaurus."

  15. #15
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puchfinnland View Post
    thanks for the offer on the chain but I cant even get a 10spd chain to work on my arrangement.

    .
    I am not surprised, a 10 speed it too narrow to work on those wide cogs, did you try a 9 speed as mentioned above? That could work.
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  16. #16
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dddd View Post
    Any 7-speed Dura-Ace or Sante 7sp freewheel can be run as a narrower 6-speed "Ultra" freewheel, no need to change any spacers.
    You only have to remove the smallest, externally-threaded cog and fond a rubber o-ring to snap into the exposed gap.

    Any 126mm 7-speed Shimano freehub is instantly made into a 124mm freehub just by removing the 1mm washer from each end of the axle assembly, so no re-dishing required and the wheel fits easily into a narrower frame.
    A bit of additional spacing can be removed from the left end as well, further narrowing the hub with almost-negligible effect on dish, and that's still with 7 speeds on there. Using a 6-speed cassette could easily allow further symmetrical narrowing of the axle assembly, enough to slip right into a 120mm frame with perhaps a 122mm axle assembly. A couple of millimeters of chainstay splay doesn't have a meaningful effect on anything.
    dddd, I like the way you think. I have a fantasy rear wheel build that is completely at the conceptual stage since I don't know much about cassettes and freehubs yet. The goal is to have a rear wheel that is at least as strong as the front wheel, with the same rim design, optionally more spokes. The key to this is minimized dish and axle overhang, which I would like to achieve by using a 130mm frame and axle, and the narrowest cassette available, which I assume is a 6-sp, along with the widest possible hub, e.g. a tandem hub or perhaps other freehub, e.g. SS, if compatible with cassette somehow. Do you have any recommendations? If this is too much of a tangent to the OP, we can start a new thread.
    Geoff
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  17. #17
    Senior Member GrayJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
    dddd, I like the way you think. I have a fantasy rear wheel build that is completely at the conceptual stage since I don't know much about cassettes and freehubs yet. The goal is to have a rear wheel that is at least as strong as the front wheel, with the same rim design, optionally more spokes. The key to this is minimized dish and axle overhang, which I would like to achieve by using a 130mm frame and axle, and the narrowest cassette available, which I assume is a 6-sp, along with the widest possible hub, e.g. a tandem hub or perhaps other freehub, e.g. SS, if compatible with cassette somehow. Do you have any recommendations? If this is too much of a tangent to the OP, we can start a new thread.
    With a typical 8-9-10 speed 130mm shimano casette road hub, the centerline between the hub flanges is offset about 8mm from the centerline of the axel. In quest for strong wheel, use a 130mm casette hub but replace the 8-9-10 speed casette body with the casette body of a 7-speed hub and move approx 5mm worth of axel spacers from DS to the NDS. The resulting offset between the flange centerline and the locknut centerline is then reduced to only around 3mm, this will get you a wheel that has much more equilized spoke tension and spoke angles side to side. (Alternately, start with a 7-speed casette hub and add longer axel and spacers to the NDS or maybe start with a 8-9-10s 135mm MTB hub, add a 7-speed casette body and remove all the extra resulting axel space from DS). You dont really want to have widest possible hub flange spacing, that just moves the NDS flange outboard and thus requires less tension for the NDS spokes. Narrow spacing between the flanges and with the DS flange as close to the DS dropout is best for equilized spokes. Once the spoke tension is equlized, this also means that more of you weight is carried on the NDS of the hub so helps equilize the load on the bearings and the axel over both sides of the hub.
    Another similar strategey is to coldset the rear end so that the dropouts are offset approx 8mm toward the DS and then re-dish the rim for equal spoke tension so that it is back inline with the frames front triangle (but rim is not centered between dropouts).

    I dont think there is much need to try to gain extra strength for the axel if you are using casette hub, bending/breaking axels isn simply not the problem that exist with freewheel hubs.

  18. #18
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    +1 on the above.

    Too bad that the invention of the derailer bicycle didn't immediately decree that rear wheel mounting points would forever be positioned with a 5 or 10mm offset toward the right.

    The way things could have been done!

  19. #19
    7-speed doomsday prepper ThermionicScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dddd View Post
    +1 on the above.

    Too bad that the invention of the derailer bicycle didn't immediately decree that rear wheel mounting points would forever be positioned with a 5 or 10mm offset toward the right.

    The way things could have been done!
    +1 to this, including GrayJay's post. Since this bike is very much a one-off project that needs not be compatible with anything else, I like the idea of stretching out the DS of the rear triangle to accommodate a modern(ish) hub.
    Quote Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
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  20. #20
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
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    Good points; thanks for the feedback! I will now go and try to digest this new information...
    Geoff
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  21. #21
    Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race dddd's Avatar
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    I suspect that the freehub AND the offset rear wheel mounting may have been invented by the time of the derailer, but that such ideas didn't catch on due to existing tooling, parts compatibility or whatever.

    Pushed to the limits, as for cyclocross racing, the rear spacing finally came up to 135 and of course the freehub already took over, the better for stronger wheels and axles, not to mention less stress on the DS dropout.

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