Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-27-12, 12:23 PM   #1
reggieob
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minneapolis
Bikes: A bunch of vintage Schwinns. Plus a 74 Peugeot, 75 Motobecane Grand Jubile, 80 Raleigh Competition GS, 85 Trek 660, 86 Bridgestone T700, 91 Serotta Colorado II, 92 Bridgestone MB-3, All City Space Horse, Big Block and Nature Boy, and a Salsa Mukluk.
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Toe-In Adjustment on Old Weinmann Centerpulls?

So I've replaced the brake pads on four of my vintage rides with the Kool Stop Continental pads. They stop great but the front brakes (only the fronts) squeal like I've never heard. I've cleaned the rims and sanded down the pads to no avail. It seems like I need to get them toed-in properly to eliminate this, but there's really no way to do the adjustment short of bending the calipers, which I've been warned against. Any ideas? Or just scrap the pads and go back to the old-fashioned DiaCompe gray pads, which for some reason don't seem as prone to squealing? Thanks.
reggieob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 12:35 PM   #2
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by reggieob View Post
So I've replaced the brake pads on four of my vintage rides with the Kool Stop Continental pads. They stop great but the front brakes (only the fronts) squeal like I've never heard. I've cleaned the rims and sanded down the pads to no avail. It seems like I need to get them toed-in properly to eliminate this, but there's really no way to do the adjustment short of bending the calipers, which I've been warned against. Any ideas? Or just scrap the pads and go back to the old-fashioned DiaCompe gray pads, which for some reason don't seem as prone to squealing? Thanks.
You can toe in your pads by contouring the face of the pad with coarse sandpaper.

Another common problem is not that the pads are toed out, but that the caliper is tilted so as to toe-in one pad while toeing-out the other pad. Often this can be corrected by loosening the mounting bolt and tilting the caliper within the freeplay of the bolt in the hole in the fork crown.

As always, a grippier interaction between pad and rim will increase the tendency to squeel. Many, many variables contribute, including rim material, anodizing, pad material and even humidity.

Lastly, a bridge plate "brake booster" in front of the caliper can be fashioned from aluminum sheet stock, which prevents the bolts from splaying out under increasing lever force, thus limiting toe-out. Longer bolts are needed, and these calipers are a little difficult to re-assemble with the springs.

And I believe you are correct about hesitating to bend in the arms. The plastic bushings will become distorted/loosened, and the pivot sleeves will rock against the aluminum bridge, causing a loss of surface squareness between the mating parts. Tightening the bolts to compensate results in pivot binding as the ends of the pivot sleeves become mushroomed, which is a pita to repair.

Last edited by dddd; 08-27-12 at 12:40 PM.
dddd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 01:49 PM   #3
MitchL
Senior Member
 
MitchL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maine
Bikes:
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I had this problem when I tried upgrading my brake pads on my vintage bike. The response I got was the old brake arms aren't strong enough to absorb all the virbration from the longer Kool stop pads. So you just have to stick with the old ones.

Old thread link
MitchL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:10 PM   #4
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
One more thing about the pads, the modern designs all seem to have the orbital washers that can allow adjusting in any reasonable abount of toe with no bending. Vintage-style pads may thus require the belt-sander treatment to effect the needed toe-in setting for the particular conditions.
dddd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:25 PM   #5
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Bikes: too many
Posts: 28,036
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 714 Post(s)
Whoever warned you against bending the arms is mistaken. I've done it hundreds of times to Weinmann calipers. Never had a problem.
__________________
Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:31 PM   #6
miamijim
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Bikes:
Posts: 13,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Whoever warned you against bending the arms is mistaken. I've done it hundreds of times to Weinmann calipers. Never had a problem.
+1. Park even makes/made a tool for it.
miamijim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:33 PM   #7
oldskoolwrench
自転車整備士
 
oldskoolwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, Colorado USA
Bikes: '86 Moots Mountaineer, '94 Salsa Ala Carte, '94 S-Works FSR, 1983 Trek 600 & 620
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Whoever warned you against bending the arms is mistaken. I've done it hundreds of times to Weinmann calipers. Never had a problem.
+1

For older caliper brakes this is the standard method for toe in. Park even made a tool specifically for bending the caliper arm.

EDIT: Jim beat me to the punch!
oldskoolwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:42 PM   #8
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pederson racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Posts: 5,069
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Whoever warned you against bending the arms is mistaken. I've done it hundreds of times to Weinmann calipers. Never had a problem.
True, you won't notice any problem right away, especially since the squeeling goes away.
But, if you've dealt with Weinmann calipers over time, and had to later tighten the bolts (only to cause binding), then you might hesitate to fix the squeeling the easy way, especially as today's better pads have not only the orbital adjustment but can be found with heavily offset pads which directly counteract the same twisting forces on the bridge and posts which contribute heavily to squeeling.

The Park tool could thus be said to be useful for toeing caliper brakes other than Dia-Compe/Weinmann centerpulls, which are unique in having the pivot sleeves not part of the caliper bridge, but rather stabilized on their narrow ends by bolt forces alone.
dddd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:48 PM   #9
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Bikes: too many
Posts: 28,036
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 714 Post(s)
No, I've been doing this for 35 years and haven't had any such problem.
__________________
Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:51 PM   #10
top506
Death fork? Naaaah!!
 
top506's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: The other Maine, north of RT 2
Bikes: '71 Gitane Super Corsa, '73 Atala Giro d'Italia, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, '76 Viscount Aerospace Pro, '81 Miyata 710, '81 Lotus Classique, '84 Ross Signature 290s, '85 Miele Gara, '87 Miyata 512, '89 Centurion Ironman, many more
Posts: 3,807
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
I'm with Tom and Jim on this; been doing it since Weinmann/Dia Compe centerpulls were state of the art.

Top
__________________
You know it's going to be a good day when the stem and seatpost come right out.
top506 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:56 PM   #11
afilado 
Senior Member
 
afilado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chattanooga
Bikes: '93 Bridgestone RB-1, '91 Specialized Allez Epic, '85 Raleigh Team Pro, '78 Andre Bertin, early '90s F. Moser Leader AX , '85 Centurion Equipe, '98 Litespeed Tuscany, '89 Klein Quantum, '80 Nishiki Superbe, '83 Peckham, '84 Fuji Opus III
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I bought some of these pretties to try on the older brake calipers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...#ht_500wt_1180

J
afilado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 02:58 PM   #12
oldskoolwrench
自転車整備士
 
oldskoolwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, Colorado USA
Bikes: '86 Moots Mountaineer, '94 Salsa Ala Carte, '94 S-Works FSR, 1983 Trek 600 & 620
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dddd View Post

The Park tool could thus be said to be useful for toeing caliper brakes other than Dia-Compe/Weinmann centerpulls, which are unique in having the pivot sleeves not part of the caliper bridge, but rather stabilized on their narrow ends by bolt forces alone.
The Park caliper tool doesn't fit current dual pivot brake calipers because the arms are too thick for the slot in the tool... that's why you find the toe in adjustment via the brake pad.

Still... as noglider has said and I will concur; mechanics from the 60's to the 90's have bent the caliper arms for toe in hundreds of thousands of times.
oldskoolwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 03:05 PM   #13
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 16,831
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
I take the wheels off and use a Crescent wrench with duct tape on the jaws to avoid marring the brakes. I can't say I've ever bent Weinmann center pull arms. I've never owned a set.
Grand Bois is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 03:23 PM   #14
Metacortex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Bikes: Fillet-brazed Schwinns
Posts: 1,909
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Even though the Park BT-3 tool has been discontinued, some places apparently still have it: http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/...UITpp&key=2371



Based on what the tool looks like I think an adjustable wrench would also do the job.
Metacortex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 03:57 PM   #15
oldskoolwrench
自転車整備士
 
oldskoolwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Denver, Colorado USA
Bikes: '86 Moots Mountaineer, '94 Salsa Ala Carte, '94 S-Works FSR, 1983 Trek 600 & 620
Posts: 898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacortex View Post
Even though the Park BT-3 tool has been discontinued, some places apparently still have it: http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/...UITpp&key=2371



Based on what the tool looks like I think an adjustable wrench would also do the job.
You are correct; an adjustable would do the same thing. So would a large flat bladed screwdriver.

I still have my BT-3 along with my OBW 1, 2 and 3 side pull caliper wrenches!
oldskoolwrench is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 04:38 PM   #16
GrayJay
Senior Member
 
GrayJay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: EagleRiver AK
Bikes:
Posts: 1,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dddd View Post
One more thing about the pads, the modern designs all seem to have the orbital washers that can allow adjusting in any reasonable abount of toe with no bending. Vintage-style pads may thus require the belt-sander treatment to effect the needed toe-in setting for the particular conditions.
Slight clarification-
To add adjustable toe functionality on vintage brakes, you can use threaded post style pads intended for MTB V-brakes. Replacement 1-piece holder/pad for these usually will include the matching convex/concave washers that allow or adjustment.
GrayJay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 06:43 PM   #17
Peugeotlover
Senior Member
 
Peugeotlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: York, PA
Bikes: '72 Peugeot PX-10; '74 Raleigh International; '87 Specialized RockHopper; '88 Specialized StumpJumper; '02 Cannondale Scalpel
Posts: 449
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Squeal-less Weinmann 610 center pull brake calipers

Here are two photos, showing the angle of the calipers on my 1974 Raleigh International with original Weinmann 610 center-pull brakes.

The rims are original polished aluminum, though the brand decal is gone.

The braking is entirely noiseless and very good.

The pads are Weinmann Brev.

I bought this bike one year ago from Vic (vicsclassicbikes.com) in Louisville, KY
for way too much money, but I love it. Best riding roadbike I've ever had.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 003.jpg (97.2 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg 004.jpg (97.0 KB, 71 views)

Last edited by Peugeotlover; 08-27-12 at 06:49 PM.
Peugeotlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 06:59 PM   #18
clasher 
Senior Member
 
clasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Kitchener, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
If I'm replacing the pad I usually put in a kool stop eagle 2 with threaded posts, seems to work for me. I've also just used an adjustable on some of them too.
clasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-12, 07:13 PM   #19
Charles Wahl
Disraeli Gears
 
Charles Wahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Bikes:
Posts: 3,128
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
I use Kool Stop Thinline (salmon) shoes on my commuter with Weinmann 610/750s. They, the Supra model, and maybe some others have radiused cup/cone that allows the shoe to be rotated to get toe-in and also to align them vertically, so that they contact the rim surface squarely. I like this feature a lot, though I've bent arms before, even on a pair of Campy Super Record calipers -- that works too. Even adjusted with toe-in, I've found that the Kool Stop shoes will squeal for awhile, until they're worn in a little and seated. This may be a function of their "grippiness," as noted by dddd above. And even when broken in, they'll squeal on a really humid morning, or right after I've cleaned the rim braking surfaces with isopropyl alcohol.
Charles Wahl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 06:50 AM   #20
Grand Bois
Senior Member
 
Grand Bois's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Pinole, CA, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 16,831
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metacortex View Post
Even though the Park BT-3 tool has been discontinued, some places apparently still have it: http://www.xxcycle.com/php/boutique/...UITpp&key=2371



Based on what the tool looks like I think an adjustable wrench would also do the job.
I'm glad you think so since that's what I've been using for the last 40 years.
Grand Bois is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 08:06 AM   #21
Pars 
Senior Member
 
Pars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Aurora, IL
Bikes: '73 Raleigh RRA, 1986 Trek 500 commuter
Posts: 2,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Yes, the Park tool seems to be a solution in search of a problem, as an adjustable wrench works just fine.

I've been using the Kool Stop Cross pads/holders with adjustable toe in on my Campy NR brakes for a few weeks now, and really like them. I have both the black and salmon Campy inserts, but like these better.
http://www.amazon.com/Kool-Stop-Threaded-Triple-Compound/dp/B0025UJYFA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346162717&sr=8-1&keywords=kool+stop+cross


Nice International Peugeotlover! I sometimes miss my old one, and might buy it back.
Pars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 09:35 AM   #22
wahoonc
Senior Member
 
wahoonc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Posts: 16,768
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
'nother arm bender here...

I typically use an adjustable wrench with some sort of padding to hold the arm and a large flat blade screwdriver or another adjustable wrench to give the bottom of the arm a tweak. That is the way I was taught back around 1970.

Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
_Nicodemus

"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
_krazygluon
wahoonc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 09:45 AM   #23
echo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've always used a cresent wrench, didn't even know they made a tool for this.
echo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 10:54 AM   #24
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,334
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
If you're committed to the bike being and looking period correct then I suppose bending the arms or using half of a washer as a shim are your best options. If a modern pad and holder are fine by you then that's really the better option. I use the Kool Stop Dura type holders and dual-compound pads.

__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-12, 07:57 PM   #25
old's'cool 
curmudgineer
 
old's'cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago SW burbs
Bikes: 2 many 2 fit here
Posts: 3,783
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
...too sexy for my shims...
__________________
Geoff
"I think that I think, therefore I think that I am"
old's'cool is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:36 PM.