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  1. #1
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Non-Simplex E.g. Huret Derailleur On PX-10

    Quick question for you Frenchie-philes.

    I have an early 1970's PX-10 with Simplex dropout, from which I just removed the original (?) Simplex derailleur. The derailleurs will clean up nicely but I'm not in love with them.

    I am wondering what alternatives would be appropriate. What would racers and racer-wannabes have hung on their PX-10s in 1974, if they didn't want the original Simplex for some reason?

    I was kind of thinking Huret mechs might have found their way onto some of these bikes? Would that be too unoriginal? And - maybe more problematic - will Huret mechs fit on a Simplex dropout?

    And about the shifters - I was thinking about starting the search for some Simplex retrofriction bar end shifters. Will those work with Huret changers? Will I need the demultiplicator, that I'll probably never find for an affordable price? And, same worry about appropriateness - in the early/mid 1970s, would bar ends ever have been used by racers?
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  2. #2
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    A couple of my racing buddies had PX-10's back in the 70's. Campy Nouvo Record was the replacement choice. How they mounted them, I don't know. Also they replaced their brakes with Universal sidepulls.

    Bar-end shifters were used by some racers.

  3. #3
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    To get a Huret to work on a Simplex dropout you will have to tap the mounting hole and fabricate a washer for the angle adjustment. Vintage Huret deraileurs do require more cable movement than Simplex. It's in the magnitude of about 50% more, so instead of the approximately 90 degree sweep to shift across 5 gears, you'll require about 135 degrees with Simplex levers. Doable but it will feel strange at first.

    The general upgrade was a Nuovo Record. Again, the dropout needed to be tapped and an angle adjustment washer fabricated. The Campagnolo shifter drum diameter falls just about halfway between Simplex and Huret, so the lever sweep when using Simplex shifters isn't quite as bad.

    Yes, many racers did opt for bar end shifters in the 1970s.

  4. #4
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Or, I can use a Huret claw to mount the Huret derailleur, without modifying the dropout - true? I'd like to not modify the hanger, ideally.

    On the cable pull issue - if the Huret derailleur needs more cable pull than the Simplex derailleur, but the Simplex bar end shifter actually needs a demultiplicator to work with a Simplex derailleur, then I'm speculating that the Simplex bar-end shifter could work with the Huret derailleur sans demultiplicator - sound plausible?

    I looked through a book of old (70's) race photos, and do see a few racers using bar ends.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Or, you can do this. Which is a little involved. But works great.



  6. #6
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
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    Please don't drew the drop-out on your 70's PX. (Too many have been done already ).
    Stick with Simplex - or do the Rootboy trick above.
    - Auchen

  7. #7
    Hopelessly addicted... photogravity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
    Or, you can do this. Which is a little involved. But works great.
    I'm trying to understand what was done here. Is there a thread on this somewhere?
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  8. #8
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by photogravity View Post
    I'm trying to understand what was done here. Is there a thread on this somewhere?
    Affirmative.

    (Kudos to RB once again, for his Yankee ingenuity)
    - Auchen

  9. #9
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    I think RB's solution is brilliant. Alas, there is only one in existence . . . as far as I know?

    For the rest of us, is the only solution layering a Huret or Campagnolo-pattern claw over the Simplex hanger?
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  10. #10
    Senior Member zukahn1's Avatar
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    You can also just hard way whatever works screw a nicer Suntour Vxg on there vintage correct better than anything Campy sold for practical and price reasons your done for a 4th the price.

  11. #11
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    A Suntour fits on a Simplex dropout? I thought Suntour used the Campy pattern dropout/hanger.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    I think RB's solution is brilliant. Alas, there is only one in existence . . . as far as I know?
    Actually, there are three in existence. PM me if interested.

  13. #13
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukahn1 View Post
    You can also just hard way whatever works screw a nicer Suntour Vxg on there vintage correct better than anything Campy sold for practical and price reasons your done for a 4th the price.
    Wrong. In several ways. A Suntour won't work on this hanger. Without a special bolt or altering the dropout.

    Thanks Auchencrow.
    Last edited by rootboy; 12-02-12 at 05:27 AM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    I think RB's solution is brilliant. Alas, there is only one in existence . . . as far as I know?

    For the rest of us, is the only solution layering a Huret or Campagnolo-pattern claw over the Simplex hanger?
    First, there are new-looking if not NOS Simplex derailleurs available on Ebay and elsewhere, which should work like new. My recollection of these derailleurs is that they shifted very well. Second, there are more modern Simplex designs that (I assume) will more easily fit your frame and work at least as well as the Delrin Prestiges. I'd tend to get one of those solutions rather than change the frame, unless you can do a really elegant thing like Rootboy has.

    Do you need more gear range? What are you trying to accomplish, other than get the frame back on the road? I don't know what you paid for the frame, but many vintage fans would like to have a good unblemished PX-10, freeing you up to get a frame that works for you. If you cut anything on the frame, you will probably totally destroy it's appeal.

    Most riders I knew (in Chicago) viewed the PX-10 as a great bike, but a stepping-stone to a full-Campy bike like a Raleigh Pro, Cinelli or Atala. Peugs were less easy than Italian and British bikes to upgrade even then. At just $50 more than a Raleigh Grand Prix (one of the bikes that commonly turned a kid who pedals into a cycling enthusiast) around 1970, it was a no-brainer to go for a PX-10 if you could, then later sell it to buy a full-Campy bike.
    Last edited by Road Fan; 12-02-12 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    Simplex Retrofriction bar end shifters are nearly impossible to find. I've only seen three of them and I bought them. Look for the notch in the back of the lever that holds the end of the spring. They look identical to the standard Simplex bar end shifters, otherwise. at least until you take them apart. Beware of missing locknuts. I think that you are correct that the cable pull would work well with a Huret derailer without the demultiplicator.

    A Campy Rally or Shimano Crane will work on your hanger if you tap it.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Reynolds 753's Avatar
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    +1 to RoadFan's post. I've seen too many french bikes being "upgraded" with italian aka campy parts. Most people are too eager to replace original parts on french bikes because they heard that anything else would be better, when in fact, they were the best bikes for the money. I have bikes with several different marques of shifting systems and all things being equal and correct, Simplex has always performed the best.

  17. #17
    "part timer" SuperLJ's Avatar
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    Grand Bois is correct that Simplex bar-end retrofriction shifters are incredibly rare. Why not stick to Simplex and use a SLJ or 610 metal unit? You'll keep your French bike all French and not have to use an unsightly steel hanger. They're not cheap on ebay, but certainly less than Huret's Jubilee. Any old Simplex derailleur (even a delrin Prestige) will shift better than the late shifting Campy NR. BTW, Kool-Stop makes exact reproduction pads for your MAFAC centerpulls that will transform them into really pleasant stoppers, certainly better than any 70's sidepulls.
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  18. #18
    vintage motor kroozer's Avatar
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    How about a newer/nicer Simplex Criterium?

  19. #19
    Old fart JohnDThompson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    maybe more problematic - will Huret mechs fit on a Simplex dropout?
    Depends on the Simplex dropout. Early versions used an unthreaded 9mm hole for the mounting and lacked a stop tab. These would need modification to work with a Huret derailleur. Later versions used a standard 10mm x 1.0mm threaded hole for the mounting bolt and had an appropriate stop tab -- provided you have the proper tabbed washer for the Huret derailleur.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyl View Post
    Or, I can use a Huret claw to mount the Huret derailleur, without modifying the dropout - true?
    Not without sawing off the Simplex hanger.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperLJ View Post
    Grand Bois is correct that Simplex bar-end retrofriction shifters are incredibly rare. Why not stick to Simplex and use a SLJ or 610 metal unit? You'll keep your French bike all French and not have to use an unsightly steel hanger. They're not cheap on ebay, but certainly less than Huret's Jubilee. Any old Simplex derailleur (even a delrin Prestige) will shift better than the late shifting Campy NR. BTW, Kool-Stop makes exact reproduction pads for your MAFAC centerpulls that will transform them into really pleasant stoppers, certainly better than any 70's sidepulls.
    NR setups in the day shifted nearly perfect on corncob freewheels such as 13-18, 14-19, or up to say 13-23; especially with new, clean, sharp-edged cog teeth, and chains of the correct stiffness (Regina). Peugs often came with 14-28s, and with that wider range the Simplexes were far more capable. Why? the upper pivot was sprung, so there was another degree of freedom to let the upper idler remain at constant free length. This minimizes over shift and undershift. Campy worked well on corncobs because of the restricted cog size, hence relatively constant free length.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    I answer to your original question, I believe that the Huret Duopar is adaptable to the early Simplex hanger with the appropriate tabbed washer and that other Huret models of the same era used the same mounting system, so you should be able to mount some Huret derailers on your Peugeot. You may have to tap the hole, but that's trivial, you can still go back to Simplex and I doubt that it hurts the value much.

    Personally, I'd look for something like this:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIPIEMME-SIM...item1c2df3aaae

    I think the SLJ 6600 is as good as Simplex derailers get. I have the 6000, which is pretty much the same, but without the silly "Aerodynamic" tag. It works well with a 14/28 seven speed freewheel. The paper tag on that one can be replaced with a NOS Simplex tag from eBay.

    I agree with Road Fan, except that PX10s did not come with 14/28s.

  22. #22
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Very thoughtful and thought-provoking input from everyone. Thank you.

    What are my goals.

    Well, my functional shifting needs are likely to be handled by all of these options. I can get along fine with a big cog of 23T or 25T, and one of my fun bikes has a 21T which works fine for me too. With the 21T I just man it up on short steep climbs, while on long tortuous climbs I, err, have to stop and look at the map every now and then. Usually now. So I do not need a wide range at the rear. I'm sure the Simplex (Prestige? Criterium?) on this bike will shift fine when it is cleaned up, the similar mech on my daughter's UO-8 does a perfectly capable job of selecting gears and her cluster goes to 28T.

    Aesthetically, I would ideally like to keep the bits French on this bike, although Italian would not horrify me if it is authentic as in it was being commonly done back in the day. Japanese is not in the cards in this case. Whatever is used has to be period, i.e. from the mid-1970s. I'm partial to Mavic but as far as I know, the 801 wasn't around in 1974/5 or whenever this bike was made - I'm still unclear on PX-10 dating.

    I think the main thing I am trying to find is something "interesting". Yet another Delrin Simplex is not all that interesting. A Simplex Super LJ would be interesting, to me. Some Huret models would be interesting to very interesting. A Campagnolo Nuovo Record would be interesting.

    Of course, hacking up the dropout is not very interesting either. I can see threading the hole if there is no alternative, but nothing more. I'm going to start a thread on cleaning up and detailing the frame. I think it is too nice an example to mess up.
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  23. #23
    Keener splendor TimmyT's Avatar
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    pm @rootboy. He can fabricate what you need for the modfication

  24. #24
    Old fart JohnDThompson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autism View Post
    I need to replace a Simplex rear derailleur on my early 1970s Gitane Grand Sport with something all metallic, no black plastic, and not requiring and modification work.
    Which derailleur should i get? Are there any moderns ones that fit?
    If your Gitane has the original unthreaded mounting hole a modern derailleur will not work without modification of the dropout (e.g. tapping 10mm x 1mm thread and filing a stop.). Simplex SX-610 and SX-630 derailleurs are often available on eBay at reasonable cost.


  25. #25
    Senior Member Grand Bois's Avatar
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    A Shimano Crane only requires tapping the hanger. The same goes for the first generation Campagnolo Rally. I don't know of anything modern that will fit without filing a stop.

    There is also a version of an old Suntour that works on early Simplex hangers. I can't remember the model and it must be rare because I've only seen one.

    The SX630 above is all metal, but the SX610 mentioned does have black plastic arms hidden under metal covers. I like them anyway.
    Last edited by Grand Bois; 08-08-14 at 08:45 AM.

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