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Old 01-06-13, 12:28 PM   #1
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Need your help again. What bike is this?

EDIT: new pics at the bottom of the page! (10-16-2016)

I bought this bike three years ago because of the parts: a Dura-Ace crankset, Nuovo Record derailleurs. I put it in a dark corner of the attic for when I would need it.
I didn't think much of the frame at the time. It had obviously been repainted and there were holes for wiring, which indicated some sort of touring frame.

So, today I went looking for a some Campagnolo stuff for my Mercier project, and brought it out for disassembly. To my surprise the seatpost that came out measured 27.2mm. Hmmmm. A closer look revealed that the lugs have been nicely filed and flattened. Hmmmm again. My first analysis: a pretty nice racing bike that was adapted for touring at some point in time. A braze-on was added to the seat stays for mounting a rack and holes were drilled to guide the wire for the rear light through the down tube.

The original color is green, a shade the reminds me of the Frisol-Gazelles of the early seventies and the Groene Leeuw bikes.

Maybe one of you recognizes this frame?



Note the cable stops on the top tube:



The hole seems to be a little off-center:



The other hole, and no serial number:



The extra braze-on. For mounting a rack?



Dropouts are Campagnolo:



The BB shell:

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Last edited by non-fixie; 10-16-16 at 02:35 PM. Reason: new pics added
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Old 01-06-13, 12:53 PM   #2
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Whatever it is I agree it looks nice.
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Old 01-06-13, 05:06 PM   #3
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ha! your frame looks way nicer than mine
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Old 01-06-13, 05:18 PM   #4
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It shares a lot of details with production brit bikes and some other interesting things. Finding "worked" lugs on a bike with only a hole through the brake bridge is odd. Also the bridge fillets are large for a production frame. I think it's been tampered with quite a bit.

Are there any serial numbers ?

I have a Dawes with those top tube guildes
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Old 01-07-13, 03:42 AM   #5
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It shares a lot of details with production brit bikes and some other interesting things. Finding "worked" lugs on a bike with only a hole through the brake bridge is odd. Also the bridge fillets are large for a production frame. I think it's been tampered with quite a bit.

Are there any serial numbers ?

I have a Dawes with those top tube guildes
I haven't found any serial number (or other identifying marks) yet. The ugly gold paint job will have to come off anyway, so maybe there's something under it. I think I'll start sanding slowly in the areas where there might be decal residue left.

These toptube cable stops indeed seem typical for British bikes, but the larger makers all seem to have put them on the right side, whereas these are on the left.
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Old 10-15-16, 04:51 PM   #6
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Hello non-fixie

Bumping.

Did you ever advance your investigations on this one at all?

If anyone is able to puzzle it out it will be you!
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Old 10-15-16, 05:30 PM   #7
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...Hope he kept the "ugly gold paint," as I think it's pretty sweet.

Imagine my disappointment as I saw the first pic and said "Raleigh of some sort; let's see if I'm right." And then no resolution. GAH!!!
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Old 10-15-16, 06:01 PM   #8
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I think me fave item here is the Favorit bimetal stem.
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Old 10-15-16, 06:02 PM   #9
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"Ugly gold paint..." you guys suppose this is one of those Puch-built Sears J.C. Higgins/Ted Williams 531 unicorns?
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Old 10-15-16, 06:10 PM   #10
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"Ugly gold paint..." you guys suppose this is one of those Puch-built Sears J.C. Higgins/Ted Williams 531 unicorns?
Nopers.
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Old 10-15-16, 07:56 PM   #11
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@non-fixie
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Old 10-15-16, 08:35 PM   #12
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If a Pletscher rack fits on it which is what it appears, to me that is a clue. It has those rack plates on the back seat stays. Isn't that more on bikes from Austria, Switzerland and Germany? I don't know if Dutch bikes routinely or often had those attached to the frame. Experts?

Having said that, that looks a bit different than the usual Pletscher plates I see; that may be because this one is of a high quality of tubing.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:02 PM   #13
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If a Pletscher rack fits on it which is what it appears, to me that is a clue. It has those rack plates on the back seat stays. Isn't that more on bikes from Austria, Switzerland and Germany? I don't know if Dutch bikes routinely or often had those attached to the frame. Experts?

Having said that, that looks a bit different than the usual Pletscher plates I see; that may be because this one is of a high quality of tubing.
It is homemade, not OEM.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:28 PM   #14
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The flat bridge could be a mount for one of the European style shackle locks that grab through the spokes of the back wheel.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:33 PM   #15
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It is homemade, not OEM.
That is what the narrative reads, however, I've noted those kinds of plates before, appearing to be brazed on in this manner on other bikes too..

Juvela, it's interesting, I reread the narrative, it reads "It had obviously been repainted and there were holes for wiring, which indicated some sort of touring frame.

Look at that picture with the rack plate, in the background on the downtube, I can actually see some writing it appears but I guess we can say that was part of the repaint as well. See the writing? I think that style is called "script". Or maybe I'm seeing an optical illusion, no writing is there, I am mistaken.

But Non-Fixie and You are certainly much more expert at this than myself; I'm just an onlooker.

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Old 10-15-16, 09:43 PM   #16
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Championship color bands where the chrome and paint meet too, back and front.

But again, the narrative says the bike was originally green so I take their word for it. It just sort of puzzles me.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:52 PM   #17
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It is indeed fairly common to see this type of plate attached to the seat stays of utility cycles in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the low countries. ESGE makes a plate style brake bridge with holes for a rack mount as well.

non-fixie's knowledge of vintage lightweights is lightyears beyond me wee ken so if he states "respray" that is more than enough for me. keep in mind also that he is "the person on the scene" and can examine the goods in real time. we here at the forum are limited to photos. no argument that there appears to be a transfer on the downtube. perhaps when non-fixie checks in he can enlighten us as to its decipherment.

the holes in the frame, presumably for lighting wiring, and those in the brake bridge all look like post-manufacture doings to my eye. it may be that the previous owner wanted to run a Sanyo chainstay dynamo and the holes in the shell and lower head lug were put there for wiring to a headlamp. when done as a factory arrangement a rubber grommet is typically fitted.
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Old 10-15-16, 09:57 PM   #18
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Championship color bands where the chrome and paint meet too, back and front.

But again, the narrative says the bike was originally green so I take their word for it. It just sort of puzzles me.
These are bits of tape or decalcomania available to all. Schwinn shops in the U.S. did a "land office" business at one time selling these transfers for cyclists to fit to their machines.

No doubt we shall all be enlightened whenst checks in our non-fixie.
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Old 10-16-16, 02:36 AM   #19
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Why, thank you! It's nice to wake up on Sunday morning and see that half the American continent has been hard at work for you!

I have a niece's birthday to attend to today, but I'll see if I can find an opportunity to dig up the frame and take some more pictures.

One question I can answer straight away: the decal on the downtube reads '10 Speed', and seems to be a generic aftermarket item.
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Old 10-16-16, 05:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
One question I can answer straight away: the decal on the downtube reads '10 Speed', and seems to be a generic aftermarket item.


And why this is confusing is because we were told originally the bike was green colored. How is it that we know this? That it was repainted.
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Old 10-16-16, 01:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by J.Oxley View Post
...Hope he kept the "ugly gold paint," as I think it's pretty sweet.

Imagine my disappointment as I saw the first pic and said "Raleigh of some sort; let's see if I'm right." And then no resolution. GAH!!!
Yes, the "ugly gold paint" is still there. The color is not bad, but it has been brushed on, with some crude touch-ups in hard to miss places, like the middle of the seat tube.

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Old 10-16-16, 01:53 PM   #22
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The flat bridge could be a mount for one of the European style shackle locks that grab through the spokes of the back wheel.
I don't think so. Those sit closer to the wheel, and are usually mounted on the seat stays using P-clips.
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Old 10-16-16, 02:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by CuttersRidge View Post
That is what the narrative reads, however, I've noted those kinds of plates before, appearing to be brazed on in this manner on other bikes too..

Juvela, it's interesting, I reread the narrative, it reads "It had obviously been repainted and there were holes for wiring, which indicated some sort of touring frame.

Look at that picture with the rack plate, in the background on the downtube, I can actually see some writing it appears but I guess we can say that was part of the repaint as well. See the writing? I think that style is called "script". Or maybe I'm seeing an optical illusion, no writing is there, I am mistaken.

But Non-Fixie and You are certainly much more expert at this than myself; I'm just an onlooker.
I'm sure it has been repainted. Here are some details that show the original green paint:





And the most obvious clue:



WRT its touring purpose: here's a picture with a rear wheel in situ, and even with the axle in this position there's ample room for fenders. This frame was not intended for racing, I think.

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Old 10-16-16, 02:13 PM   #24
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There are two decals on the frame, both in a rather gaudy 'script' type font. Not as bad as Comic Sans, but still.

The ' 10 Speed' decal, on top of the down tube:



And a decal, from the same source it seems, that makes up the head badge (XB?):

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Old 10-16-16, 02:28 PM   #25
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When looking at the head tube pic above, I noticed two things I hadn't seen before. One is a head badge rivet, right in the middle below the decal. I just had another look at the head tube, and I can't find another one. Or two, which was kind of what I was hoping to find.

Also, it looks in the picture like there just might be a serial number under that paint on the lower HT lug. Just checked that again as well, but even with a torch and my strongest pair of reading glasses I don't see anything.
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