Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-15-13, 12:49 PM   #1
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ciocc "Designer 84" retro-mod project

So, given the news that my old Tommasini will not be coming home, after all, I decided to move forward on satiating my desire to have a road bike in my stable once again.
I've been poring over CL search engines and Ebay for the past 3-4 weeks just to see what is out there in my desired size (61-62 ST and 55-56 TT). A few possibilities have popped up, but have been priced too high for my intentions and budget.
Thanks to a head's up from BF member Highgear, I bid (and won) on a decent Ciocc "Designer '84" frame set in SLX and, more importantly, my size. 61 ST c-c and 56 TT c-c. Just about perfect.

And so begins my road bike project. The frame is in used but good condition. I plan to keep it as is - just clean it up, protect it/touch it up, and build it.
My goal is to have a solid bike for my frequent road rides to come, perhaps for commuting when I'm in the mood for fast -n- light. So, I do not plan to do a "restoration" or period correct build. If this were a pre-1980 Pelizzoli era frame, then it would be different. I'm thinking 9 or 10 speed Campy. The smoked chrome is nice because I think I can go either way - polished alloy or black - and it would still look nice.

I lack the tools to re-space the frame, and am not in the mood to risk messing it up, so I've contacted a local frame builder so I can work with him to re-space and verify alignment throughout. I needed an excuse to meet him, any way.

So, here are the Ebay pics. I'll snap some more when it arrives, and will be contemplating build options in the mean time. More to come.




Last edited by canyoneagle; 01-15-13 at 12:55 PM.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 01:00 PM   #2
ColonelJLloyd 
Senior Member
 
ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Louisville
Bikes:
Posts: 8,232
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
That's pretty sweet, man! Modern Campaganolo sounds perfect.

I think TimmyT also has a Designer '84.
__________________
Bikes on Flickr
I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com
ColonelJLloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 01:44 PM   #3
Bianchigirll 
Bianchi Goddess
 
Bianchigirll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Camp Hill, PA
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Posts: 22,433
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Nice looking frame. that is too bad about your Tommasini, but perhaps it was just not to be.

I should really try and aquire one of these and see what the hubbub is all about.
__________________
Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto, '90 Campione del Fausto Giamondi Specialisma Italiano Mundo, '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '86 Volpe, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '09 Motobecane SOLD, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape
Bianchigirll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 02:05 PM   #4
Velognome 
Get off my lawn!
 
Velognome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Garden State
Bikes: 1917 Loomis, 1923 Rudge, 1930 Hercules Renown, 1947 Mclean, 1948 JA Holland, 1955 Hetchins, 1957 Carlton Flyer, 1962 Raleigh Sport, 1978&81 Raleigh Gomp GS', 2010 Raliegh Clubman
Posts: 6,113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Quote:
I lack the tools to re-space the frame, and am not in the mood to risk messing it up, so I've contacted a local frame builder so I can work with him to re-space and verify alignment throughout. I needed an excuse to meet him, any way.
Very nice project!! I wouldn't go at it with a 2x4 and chair ala Sheldon either.

They're expertise is well worth it. I was chatting with our local shop owner who builds and repairs frames. A customer came in wanting the rear cold set. Out comes a straight edge, calipers and dropout alignment tool . He measured, clamped the brake bridge and tugged at the stays a few times, measured again and aligned the dropouts. Seemed like it took only seconds but it must have been all of about 5 minutes. He handed the frame back to the customer who was standing there with his mouth open. "There ya go"
Velognome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 02:43 PM   #5
fiataccompli
Steel Member
 
fiataccompli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Bikes: N + 1
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Going from 126 to 130, I'm not sure if you really need to respace a frame (I've seen it done & not done, both straight, both without long-term issues, etc. etc.), but I could also say the 2x4/chair method when used carefully & with digital calipers then followed with alignment checking/correcting is not difficult...but like all mechanical repairs NOT something to endeavor if it freaks you out to think of it.

nice Ciocc, btw
fiataccompli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 02:50 PM   #6
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velognome View Post
Very nice project!! I wouldn't go at it with a 2x4 and chair ala Sheldon either.

They're expertise is well worth it. I was chatting with our local shop owner who builds and repairs frames. A customer came in wanting the rear cold set. Out comes a straight edge, calipers and dropout alignment tool . He measured, clamped the brake bridge and tugged at the stays a few times, measured again and aligned the dropouts. Seemed like it took only seconds but it must have been all of about 5 minutes. He handed the frame back to the customer who was standing there with his mouth open. "There ya go"


I had given some thought to fabricating my own dropout alignment tools with all-thread and such, and gingerly using the Sheldon method. Like you, I just don't want to mess with it on a nice frame. Plus, it is a great opportunity for me to meet our local frame builder.

I've been re-learning the proper pronunciation, "cheewrch", after having said "chee-owch" for many years.

I came across this old video while on a Youtube marathon. Looks like the post-Pelizzoli era, when things were higher production. I read somewhere that at their peak, Ciocc was producing 4,000 frames per year. This video looks like it is from the height of that era. Definitely a departure from the image of the old master with a torch, flux and solder, but still interesting to watch. The soundtrack is hard to tolerate (80's remakes of old classics), so I listened to my own music.




Pronunciation from the man himself: (at 12 seconds in to the video)

Last edited by canyoneagle; 01-15-13 at 03:21 PM.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 02:53 PM   #7
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiataccompli View Post
Going from 126 to 130, I'm not sure if you really need to respace a frame (I've seen it done & not done, both straight, both without long-term issues, etc. etc.), but I could also say the 2x4/chair method when used carefully & with digital calipers then followed with alignment checking/correcting is not difficult...but like all mechanical repairs NOT something to endeavor if it freaks you out to think of it.

nice Ciocc, btw
Agreed on all points.
I re-spaced my old Super Course many years ago after simply squeezing 130mm wheels in for a few years, which worked fine. I used the 2x4 method and used a crescent wrench to align the dropouts. It was very easy. I'd like to throw it on a frame table this time around and observe the process being done "properly". Sort of like an educational field trip
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 02:59 PM   #8
triumph.1
Senior Member
 
triumph.1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: N Central Illinois
Bikes: 12 colnago clx3.0, 12 Bianchi Oltre VDCM, 13 Bianchi Cavaria,12 Bianchi infinito, couple vintage Bianchi's and a 1980 alan super record
Posts: 1,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wondered who got that I watched it and was going to bid in the last few seconds but decided I wanted to wait for Madison. Nice frame enjoy.
triumph.1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:02 PM   #9
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by triumph.1 View Post
I wondered who got that I watched it and was going to bid in the last few seconds but decided I wanted to wait for Madison. Nice frame enjoy.
I was surprised that I got it uncontested. I watched during the last minute for "snipe" bids, and nothing. Needless to say, I was happy.

Thanks for not bidding!
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:04 PM   #10
cyclotoine
Senior Member
 
cyclotoine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Yukon, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 8,504
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
The 2x4 method is fine. with some string and calipers, digital are overkill even. Have the DO alignment tool is a must however. The hanger can be aligned by eye and tweaked after the derailleur is mounted. I have done it more times than I can count. The frame alignment gauge is better than the string however and I usually had one of those at my disposal.

Edit: I hope when you get it there is no surprise about the top tube. a 56cm top tube on an italian of that vintage with that seat tube is not super common. I would have guessed 58.
__________________
1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear
cyclotoine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:12 PM   #11
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
I hope when you get it there is no surprise about the top tube. a 56cm top tube on an italian of that vintage with that seat tube is not super common. I would have guessed 58.
Same here. I confirmed the dimensions with the seller, and he assured me that they were correct. You can count on the fact that the TT will be the first thing I measure when I get the frame. 58-59 would be more typical, as you say, and the short TT was the catalyst for my bid. I'll be pretty upset if it turns out to be longer than 56.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:24 PM   #12
thinktubes 
Fast+Bulbous
 
thinktubes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Across the street from Chicago
Bikes:
Posts: 3,364
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Nice pickup!!! I was watching that one just out of curiousity. You're in for a real treat!!!!!!

I have a 57 ctc, which has a 56 ctc TT.

I logged over 1700 miles on mine last year and it was a total blast. Mid-season, I updated to a Shimano Hollowtech crank, which really improved the energy transfer in the BB. Should be a great canidate for modern components. SLX really rides like a dream.

thinktubes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:25 PM   #13
Wulf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Fun Footage. OSHA would have that place shut down faster than Lance Armstrong. Grinding without safety glasses or guard. Brazing with ordinary sunglasses. I didnt even wait for the painting footage.
Wulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:36 PM   #14
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
Fun Footage. OSHA would have that place shut down faster than Lance Armstrong. Grinding without safety glasses or guard. Brazing with ordinary sunglasses. I didnt even wait for the painting footage.
LOL I thought the same thing. And not surprisingly, the guy did not wear any form of respirator while priming.


Nice looking bike, Thinktubes.
I've only owned/ridden one other SLX frame (Guerciotti) and it is/was among my favorites.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:36 PM   #15
fiataccompli
Steel Member
 
fiataccompli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Knoxville, TN
Bikes: N + 1
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
FWIW, I have an SLX Bertoni frame that I've built up with Campy Record 10 (lucky enough...?... to have found an early group with only a hint of carbon fiber in it). It's a very nice ride, but I would not at all relegate it to commuting, short rides, etc...it is capable of being a quite fast ride logging 75-100 miles at a time keeping ample pace with the carbon fiber crowd. This is probably my favorite recipe for a fast, fun road bike in all cases up to all-out racing where the last 25 years of technical advancements probably really do give you a useful edge.
fiataccompli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 03:43 PM   #16
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiataccompli View Post
FWIW, I have an SLX Bertoni frame that I've built up with Campy Record 10 (lucky enough...?... to have found an early group with only a hint of carbon fiber in it). It's a very nice ride, but I would not at all relegate it to commuting, short rides, etc...it is capable of being a quite fast ride logging 75-100 miles at a time keeping ample pace with the carbon fiber crowd. This is probably my favorite recipe for a fast, fun road bike in all cases up to all-out racing where the last 25 years of technical advancements probably really do give you a useful edge.
I have a dedicated commuter/transportation bike that would see the brunt of commuting duty. When I've also had road bikes in the stable, I would typically enjoy riding them on sunny Fridays for a fun break from the routine.
My main use will be for long sunny day rides, group rides, centuries, and Gran Fondos. It should be alot of fun.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 04:09 PM   #17
ericzamora
junior
 
ericzamora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Fresno, Calif.
Bikes: Bianchi Campione D'Italia / Gary Fisher Wingra / Motobecane Nomade mixte (daughter's)
Posts: 76
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
beautiful bike! I think a Ciocc ranks up there with me for a classic dream-bike acquisition.

eric
fresno, ca.
ericzamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 04:49 PM   #18
TimmyT 
Keener splendor
 
TimmyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York, NY
Bikes: Nigel Dean Tour Ace, Ciocc Designer '84, Simoncini SLX, Lynskey Litespeed Ti, Shogun 1000 triple triangle, '69 Peter Cockburn Audax
Posts: 2,062
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Enjoy! These are nice frames. I picked one up last year with an SR group. I think mine is a 60cm st, and it's about as small as I can go comfortably. I've changed a few things since this photo was taken (like the handlebars, bottle cages, saddle, levers, etc.), but you get the idea. They are really stable frames with really tight spacing. Frankly, I think that you should get it respaced with the proper tools if you are going to 130mm. The rear wheel spacing to the seat tube is tight, tight, tight.

Mark Bulgier has the original catalog scans for the Ciocc Designer '84 on his website.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg ciocc_drive_side.jpg (100.9 KB, 364 views)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigslist View Post
Note to you BLOWHARD MORONS out there: The fork is not bent. Most PEUGEOTS of the '70s forks DID NOT line up with the head tube angle. This is normal. The last pic is from the 1972 Dutch catalog showing this EXACT MODEL in diagram. Keep your comments to yourself......
It's pronounced, "Co-burn."
TimmyT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 05:53 PM   #19
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
Enjoy! These are nice frames. I picked one up last year with an SR group. I think mine is a 60cm st, and it's about as small as I can go comfortably. I've changed a few things since this photo was taken (like the handlebars, bottle cages, saddle, levers, etc.), but you get the idea. They are really stable frames with really tight spacing. Frankly, I think that you should get it respaced with the proper tools if you are going to 130mm. The rear wheel spacing to the seat tube is tight, tight, tight.

Mark Bulgier has the original catalog scans for the Ciocc Designer '84 on his website.
Nice bike.
It has been a while since I've poked into the archives at bulgier.net. Time for another visit.

BTW what length crank is on there? 175? How is toe overlap with the front wheel?

Last edited by canyoneagle; 01-15-13 at 06:51 PM.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 08:45 PM   #20
ciocc_cat
"Chooch"
 
ciocc_cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Prairieville, Louisiana
Bikes: 1980s Ciocc San Cristobal, 2000-ish Ciocc Titan
Posts: 1,658
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Back-in-the-day, I re-spaced an Austro-Daimler Reynolds 531 Inter 10 frame from 5-speed to 6-speed simply by spreading the rear triangle by hand. It worked just fine. In later years I considered myself lucky that it turned out alright.

Yours is a BEAUTIFUL Ciocc, but some might consider my opinion biased. I can't imagine why . . .
ciocc_cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 09:21 PM   #21
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Subscribed and excitited.I can't get enough of campy 10 on lugged steel.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 11:23 PM   #22
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciocc_cat View Post
but some might consider my opinion biased. I can't imagine why . . .
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-13, 11:27 PM   #23
canyoneagle
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
canyoneagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Palisade, CO
Bikes: Singular Gryphon fully rigid 29er multi-use. Nuvinci N360 IGH
Posts: 4,236
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
Subscribed and excitited.I can't get enough of campy 10 on lugged steel.
There's something intrinsically appealing about it, isn't there?
I am watching yours as well as other C&V - ish builds that are all happening during these cold months.
canyoneagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-13, 07:08 AM   #24
thirdgenbird
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 7,108
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoneagle View Post
There's something intrinsically appealing about it, isn't there?
I am watching yours as well as other C&V - ish builds that are all happening during these cold months.
People that have not experienced it are truly missing something.
thirdgenbird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-13, 08:06 AM   #25
TimmyT 
Keener splendor
 
TimmyT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New York, NY
Bikes: Nigel Dean Tour Ace, Ciocc Designer '84, Simoncini SLX, Lynskey Litespeed Ti, Shogun 1000 triple triangle, '69 Peter Cockburn Audax
Posts: 2,062
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canyoneagle View Post
Nice bike.
It has been a while since I've poked into the archives at bulgier.net. Time for another visit.

BTW what length crank is on there? 175? How is toe overlap with the front wheel?
Thanks, I like it, too, but I really can't take credit for the build. The PO worked in a Texas bike shop as an 18 year old racer. It's the kind of bike that doesn't rattle and makes no noise. When he sold it to me last year, he gave me a whole bunch of spare parts, including a seemingly unused set of SR brake levers with original hoods.

I think it's a 170. Toe overlap is an issue, but not as much my touring or cyclocross bikes with fenders. Honestly, I don't notice it unless I go from a dead stop and turn the wheel as I gain speed. If you're going to run raceblade fenders or something like that (see rhm's Basso thread for what he did), then toe overlap is going to be an issue.

The tire is tight to the frame in the front, too. This is the only one in my fleet that I have reached down to shift and gotten a piece of the tire at speed. You won't have that problem with ergopower.

In that photo, the bike has 28s on it, and that is the largest tire the frame can take. Right now, I have Conti GP4000s 25s on it. The SR single pivots give a few mm extra clearance, so if you put a set of dual pivots on, you may lose the option for 28s entirely.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigslist View Post
Note to you BLOWHARD MORONS out there: The fork is not bent. Most PEUGEOTS of the '70s forks DID NOT line up with the head tube angle. This is normal. The last pic is from the 1972 Dutch catalog showing this EXACT MODEL in diagram. Keep your comments to yourself......
It's pronounced, "Co-burn."

Last edited by TimmyT; 01-16-13 at 08:09 AM.
TimmyT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:20 AM.