Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 49
  1. #1
    What??? Only 2 wheels? jimmuller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boston-ish, MA
    My Bikes
    '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '72 Bertin C32, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, and lots of uncertainty on some
    Posts
    7,560
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Weak RD, what to do?

    My Bianchi has Suntour Cyclone derailleurs. Smooth, fast to shift, quiet, light. But the RD has a problem: It doesn't want to go onto the smallest cog (smallest of 6). The stop screw isn't the problem, the parallelogram spring is. Or springs are, for there are two of them. The cable and housing are newish Jagwire and operate smoothly. The housing is a bit stiff so it appears to be wishing it didn't have to bend quite as much as it is needs to to enter the back plate of the parallelogram. But the biggest problem is simply that the springs aren't very strong.

    Any thoughts on what else I can do to help this? Disassembling the parallelogram doesn't look feasible.

    I noticed this problem when I first assembled the bike but managed to overcome it with lubing, bending, coaxing, and pleading. The problem has returned. I don't have many occasions to use the small cog, but I noticed it when cleaning up after this weekend's ride. No point in having a 6-speed FW when you can use only 5.

    Real cyclists use toe clips.
    jimmuller

  2. #2
    Senior Member ColonelJLloyd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Louisville
    Posts
    8,196
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Your Cyclone is now like Louis CK's incurable, sh***y ankle. It's just worn out.

    Perhaps a derailleur surgeon could transplant some donor return springs from a cadaver Cyclone, but you're not an athlete so maybe you should just take 10 Aleve, watch this and call me in the morning.
    Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 01-15-13 at 02:39 PM.
    Bikes on Flickr
    I prefer email to private messages. You can contact me at justinhughes@me.com

  3. #3
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Camp Hill, PA
    My Bikes
    Too many to list here check my signature.
    Posts
    20,504
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Thats a funny looking RD!



    The hanger isn't bent right?
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo SOLd, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis SOLD, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti SOLD, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe SOLD, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  4. #4
    Senior Member jeirvine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baltimore
    My Bikes
    Too many to count. No wait: eight. I have eight bikes.
    Posts
    1,439
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Have you cleaned and lubed the RD itself? And I have a busted Cyclone. I may be able to offer a spring, assuming it's transplantable.
    The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy

  5. #5
    Senior Member miamijim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    12,010
    Mentioned
    25 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Its probably at the end of its travel limit.....way out there spring tension is at minimum.

    Assuming its spring tension:

    A: you need to move the high gear cog closer to the mid line of the bike. There are two options, first switch to a narrow freewheel, and second repace the hub. Respacing the hub isnt the best idea because you'll need a dish change.

    If its something other than the spring:

    a: 'd' screw needs to cranked in....or our depending on the angle.
    b. worn jockey wheels wiil do it
    c. too tight of a cable will do it. it's friction shifting so extra slack is ok
    WWW.CYCLESPEUGEOT.COM 2005 Pinarello Dogma; 1991 Paramount PDG 70 Mtb; 1976? AD Vent Noir; 1989 LeMond Maillot Juane F&F; 1993? Basso GAP F&F; 1989 Terry Symmetry; 2003 Trek 4700 Mtb; 1983 Vitus 979

  6. #6
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,251
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Go back a 5-speed Jim - or maybe 3 - like a true-blue C&V'er.
    (No sense getting all hot and bothered with those consarned new-fangled 6-speed freewheels.)
    - Auchen

  7. #7
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sand Spit East
    Posts
    12,926
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Auchencrow, you're positively backwards. In a good way.

    I don't know, so I'll ask a stupid question here. Is the spring not replaceable on SunTours?

  8. #8
    Senior Member auchencrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    10,251
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
    Auchencrow, you're positively backwards. In a good way.

    I don't know, so I'll ask a stupid question here. Is the spring not replaceable on SunTours?
    They're located inside the parallelogram plates that are secured with swaged pivot pins - no small chore to remove and reinstall I'm sure.
    - Auchen

  9. #9
    What??? Only 2 wheels? jimmuller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boston-ish, MA
    My Bikes
    '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '72 Bertin C32, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, and lots of uncertainty on some
    Posts
    7,560
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Yowl, such an awesome range of answers! Some even helpful, maybe, in a mis-directing kind of way!

    As for it moving through its full range, I can encourage it with my fingers and it works just fine, so I could just treat it like an old-fangled pre-shift-lever derailleur. I might need longer fingers though. More of 'em too in case I break one off. Or re-grow one after I break it.

    No, it's just a weak spring. It will move, but it's lazy and won't move all the way out without encouragement. The cable is plenty slack.

    The springs may be replaceable but to do so I'd have to punch out the pins which hold the parallelogram together and then somehow get them back in again. If I was going to do that I might as well just re-bend the springs. Never done it before but I could try. If worse comes to worse I have a Vx that will work just fine, and spare parts for another Cyclone. But dang, that 1st-gen Cyclone is purtty. And smooooth. I'd hate to lose it.

    I don't mind re-dishing the wheel. I like doing wheels, even got a new truing stand for Christmas! But the FW is what it is and I don't feel like taking it apart, couldn't gain but so much lateral space anyway. Re-spacing sealed-bearing Mavic 501 probably isn't an answer.

    Thanks for all the input. I'll rest my ankle, up my game, take it to the next level, do some stuff, execute the game plan, and maybe try bending the cable housing so that it encourages the derailleur to move. Or go with the Vx. Or leave it alone and come to understand that I never use that cog anyway. Around here 75% of every route is uphill anyway.
    Real cyclists use toe clips.
    jimmuller

  10. #10
    Senior Member cyclotoine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    YT
    Posts
    7,657
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Classic worn out cyclone. They are known for their week springs. nothing less, nothing more. You notice it works okay when the spring is more stretched. You could add a washer to the drive side of your axle and a washer to the upper pivot to move the derailleur further away from the high gear and thus move the high gear into a stronger area of the spring travel (make sense?). Or you could start looking for a new derailleur. You could also attempt the surgery, that would be pretty cool but very difficult for it to come out unscathed, if you go to the trouble don't use a used cyclone spring for cripes sake! those are the Achilles. Find a stronger spring from another derailleur.
    1 Super Record bike, 1 Nuovo Record bike, 1 Pista, 1 Road, 1 Cyclocross/Allrounder, 1 MTB, 1 Touring, 1 Fixed gear

  11. #11
    Gearhead old's'cool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Chicago SW burbs
    My Bikes
    2 many 2 fit here
    Posts
    3,041
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Whatever you do, don't rebend and reuse the spring after all the effort of dismantling the derailleur. IF you can find a donor spring that is not 'set' like your current one, that would be a good bet. Another option, if you can figure out the details, is just shim the existing spring a small amount to add a little preload.
    Geoff
    "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am"

  12. #12
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sand Spit East
    Posts
    12,926
    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
    Or leave it alone and come to understand that I never use that cog anyway. Around here 75% of every route is uphill anyway.
    I know I aint much help. But I like this option Jim.

  13. #13
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    West Village, New York City
    My Bikes
    too many
    Posts
    20,491
    Mentioned
    99 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Maybe you could put a little spacer between the spring and the place where it rubs on the inside of the parallelogram. This would wind up the spring just a tiny bit more. You'd have to have a low friction surface, though, so this suggestion probably won't work.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  14. #14
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Somerville, MA and Catskill Mtns
    Posts
    3,723
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by cyclotoine View Post
    Classic worn out cyclone. They are known for their week springs. nothing less, nothing more.
    I've learned about this too; I have a newer Suntour (XC) with the same problem. Never had a Shimano or Campagnolo RD with a weak spring.
    Riding the Catskills blog

    Flickr

    1971 Mercian Olympic | 1972 Jeunet 630 | 1982 Jack Taylor Tour of Britain | 1984 Shogun 1500 650B | 2013 Rawland Stag | 2014 Jeff Lyon L'Avecaise

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Above ground, Walnut Creek, Ca
    My Bikes
    7 single speed road
    Posts
    4,151
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    it may not be the spring. remember that as the gears get higher, the parallelogram is collapsing. one piece is supposed to fit inside the other as it collapses. anything, a ridge, junk, a worn pin can cause the two pieces to hit one another and prevent them from nesting properly. as they age, a bur or ridge can be created on the large outside piece of the parallelogram. the fact that DR's use the small cog so rarely just amplifies the problem.

  16. #16
    Senior Member fender1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Berwyn PA
    My Bikes
    I hate bikes!
    Posts
    4,500
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    or get a different derailleur, install and go for a ride.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    My Bikes
    2x Bianchi, 2x Specialized, 3x Schwinns
    Posts
    359
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I fixed my old suntour deraileur - your spring is not worn out, it is just a design flaw. I could never get mine to drop into the smallest cog from day one. What I did was was drill a hole in the derailleur body directly over the end of the spring. Then I threaded a machine screw in to "pre tension" the return spring. I etched a slot on the end of of the screw with a dremel tool to engage with the return spring, effectively locking it in place at any tension. Worked like a charm,

  18. #18
    Senior Member Pars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Aurora, IL
    My Bikes
    '73 Raleigh RRA, 1986 Trek 500 commuter
    Posts
    2,048
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ^ that's a good idea if your machining skills are up to it. I always thought the springs kinda slid along the inside of the parallelogram though?

  19. #19
    Senior Member Old Yeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    My Bikes
    1987 Trek 1500, 1989 Pinarello Montello, 1998 Trek 7000 MTB
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
    I fixed my old suntour deraileur - your spring is not worn out, it is just a design flaw. I could never get mine to drop into the smallest cog from day one. What I did was was drill a hole in the derailleur body directly over the end of the spring. Then I threaded a machine screw in to "pre tension" the return spring. I etched a slot on the end of of the screw with a dremel tool to engage with the return spring, effectively locking it in place at any tension. Worked like a charm,
    Wow, I'm impressed enough to wonder why no manufacturer that I am aware of has ever incorporated a "tension screw". At least Campy provided a bolt to allow spring replacement in earlier Nuovo and Super Record.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    My Bikes
    2x Bianchi, 2x Specialized, 3x Schwinns
    Posts
    359
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Don't be too impressed with my machine tool skills - handheld power drill through aluminium, then force feeding the screw in. I may have used a sheet metal screw with a self tapping tip - I don't quite recall. You do need to drill the hole in the right spot, but I think the edge of the s pring was in the corner of the "box", so it wasn't all that difficult to figure out where to drill the hole.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Old Yeller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Indiana
    My Bikes
    1987 Trek 1500, 1989 Pinarello Montello, 1998 Trek 7000 MTB
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You're method/execution might not be pretty but the idea is great.

  22. #22
    What??? Only 2 wheels? jimmuller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Boston-ish, MA
    My Bikes
    '73 Raleigh Carlton Gran Sport, '72 Peugeot UO-8, '82 Peugeot TH8, '87 Bianchi Brava, '76? Masi Grand Criterium, '72 Bertin C32, '87 Centurion Ironman Expert, '74 Motobecane Champion Team, and lots of uncertainty on some
    Posts
    7,560
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by old's'cool View Post
    Another option, if you can figure out the details, is just shim the existing spring a small amount to add a little preload.
    Quote Originally Posted by noglider View Post
    Maybe you could put a little spacer between the spring and the place where it rubs on the inside of the parallelogram.
    Good idea, OC and NG. That may not be too hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
    What I did was was drill a hole in the derailleur body directly over the end of the spring. Then I threaded a machine screw in to "pre tension" the return spring.
    Neat idea! One I'm likely to thoroughly botch too.

    Much to consider here. Thank you all!

    Great bunch of folks. I like fender's idea best, go for a ride.
    Real cyclists use toe clips.
    jimmuller

  23. #23
    Senior Member IthaDan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ithaca, NY
    My Bikes
    Click on the #YOLO
    Posts
    4,649
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Yeller View Post
    Wow, I'm impressed enough to wonder why no manufacturer that I am aware of has ever incorporated a "tension screw". At least Campy provided a bolt to allow spring replacement in earlier Nuovo and Super Record.
    Early 90s shimano had a tension screw- I know for a fact that 735 XT and the corresponding LX RDs had a little cam with a flathead screwdriver slot that you could rotate around to several different index points to set preload on the spring. (halfway down linked image, on the right) Pretty sure at least one generation of tricolor had this as well. I have almost no experience with XTR or DA of the era to say definitively either way. So I won't.

    Unfortunately, in a transition to "light action" shifting (or, according to some, as an effort to calm the rising surge of gripshift converts by reducing the RDs capability to keep the cable taut, rendering gripshift unreliable at its job), shimano changed their parallelogram springs to coils from corner to corner and greatly reduced the return tension. This meant that contemporary rear derailleurs (the 737 era of XT) were incompatible with gripshift.

    This created a space in the market for aftermarket hacks to get the two systems to play nice. There were two schools for compatibility: reduce friction in the cable or increase the return spring. It was then when we first encoutered the $40 per set GoreTex cables and housings, and, more bizarrely, the era of the gripshift bassworm. The bassworm was a piece of surgical tubing that would sit in the chainstay cable stop and provide supplementary return tension for the cable as the shifter released it. I guess it also kept the rearmost length of housing from getting clogged up, but the primary purpose was for spring assistance.

    Bassworm:







    That's kind of a long way to go to suggest you look into something like a gripshift bassworm to assist a weak return spring, but I was on a roll.
    Last edited by IthaDan; 01-15-13 at 11:21 PM.

    Shimano : Click :: Campy :: Snap :: SRAM : Bang

  24. #24
    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    vermont
    My Bikes
    Many
    Posts
    3,093
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    washer between derailleur and dropout hanger.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

  25. #25
    Senior Member jeirvine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Baltimore
    My Bikes
    Too many to count. No wait: eight. I have eight bikes.
    Posts
    1,439
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ftwelder View Post
    washer between derailleur and dropout hanger.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H.L. Mencken

    Your answer, however, is the exception that proves the rule. That's fookin' brilliant.
    The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •