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-   -   Frame Identification required (http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/889052-frame-identification-required.html)

littlebeetle 05-16-13 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mar (Post 15628165)
4 kg. is very heavy for a frame. It's not quite as bad if you're talking as rec'd condition, with the fork, headset and bottom bracket. The best indicator for frame quality is the required seat post/internal seat tube diameter, though given the apparent era, even the entry level sport models were using seamed, butted CrMo, so it may not prove anything.

Thanks T-Mar!!

So far was only told that the internal seat tube diameter is 26 mm.
However I don't see a big issue to source for stem as it should be common.

littlebeetle 05-16-13 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bianchigirll (Post 15628178)
very fine sandpaper or steel wool will do the trick.

Thanks buddy...for the solution..I do have a 2000 grade sand paper at home, shall try it out ;)

T-Mar 05-16-13 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebeetle (Post 15631111)
Thanks T-Mar!!

So far was only told that the internal seat tube diameter is 26 mm.
However I don't see a big issue to source for stem as it should be common.

26mm is quite small for a post. That would be typical of a lighweight hi-tensile steel.

littlebeetle 05-16-13 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mar (Post 15631470)
26mm is quite small for a post. That would be typical of a lighweight hi-tensile steel.

Yes...Most common seat post comes in 27.2mm

littlebeetle 05-20-13 02:22 AM

What you guys think of this color? Bronze...

http://speedbicycles.ch/bikes/340/bigPic/speed_004.jpg

zukahn1 05-20-13 02:57 AM

+1 A very nice bike definate high quality. The nice lugs with slightly rough finish would me lead me to thinck either British or Canadain origin.

unworthy1 05-20-13 08:51 AM

That's color-shifted a little I think, as the trademark Wilier color was more like copper than bronze. Plus, this is a cromovelato paint job: transparent lacquer (copper colored) over full chrome plating. Not something to try if you have a budget. You can get a similar (but not quite) effect by spraying a sliver metallic base coat and a transparent top coat, this was a practice of many British bike painters (called "flamboyant" paint in that case) as well as US hot-rod customizers (Kandy-Kolor). For variety, this was sometimes used with a gold metallic or white base coat.
The lac-over-chrome is particularly fragile as the paint itself isn't very durable and adhesion of any paint on chrome is poor.

littlebeetle 05-21-13 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zukahn1 (Post 15644379)
+1 A very nice bike definate high quality. The nice lugs with slightly rough finish would me lead me to thinck either British or Canadain origin.

Thanks for the compliment.
While waiting a good news about the identity of the bike, I have alternatively looking at some decals which I want to make my bike look like a Gazelle
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Gazelle-set-o...sQpNQ~~_35.JPG

Now I have to shop for parts everywhere including ebay. I have some parts namely hubs, cassette, stem (ALPS), crankset (sugino). The rest, I will have to get from ebay. Anyway, will try my luck in Sydney next month as I will be there for a week.

littlebeetle 05-21-13 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unworthy1 (Post 15645092)
That's color-shifted a little I think, as the trademark Wilier color was more like copper than bronze. Plus, this is a cromovelato paint job: transparent lacquer (copper colored) over full chrome plating. Not something to try if you have a budget. You can get a similar (but not quite) effect by spraying a sliver metallic base coat and a transparent top coat, this was a practice of many British bike painters (called "flamboyant" paint in that case) as well as US hot-rod customizers (Kandy-Kolor). For variety, this was sometimes used with a gold metallic or white base coat.
The lac-over-chrome is particularly fragile as the paint itself isn't very durable and adhesion of any paint on chrome is poor.

Detailed explanation...Thanks! Let me share this info to my painter...

littlebeetle 05-23-13 12:59 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Also another similar color
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=318638

littlebeetle 08-29-13 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Mar (Post 15627542)
I've been collecting and studying serial numberS for a number of years and, to date, have identified and decyphered the serial numbers for approsimately 50 different Asian brands, along with several non-Asian brands. If you want to see some examples of my work, check out the Serial Number Database threads for Centurion, Fuji and Nishiki, on this forum.



My initial thoughts were Fuji too. The serial number format is very similar to that used by Fuji in the 1990s, but is not identical. There are one too many characters. However, that could be an accident, as the OP does show a space in his original post. However, I would think that by this time Fuji would have been producing Fuji branded dropouts and not using generic versions. Still, I can't say that with absolute certainty and therefore cannot rule out a Fuji.


After brushing the paint off, the serial number are clearer.

It's F2K00188.

I have tried to search Fuji, not so much any indication..Will continue to seach on other bike databases

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-l...255B1%255D.jpg

littlebeetle 09-01-13 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlebeetle (Post 16010168)
After brushing the paint off, the serial number are clearer.

It's F2K00188.

I have tried to search Fuji, not so much any indication..Will continue to seach on other bike databases

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-l...255B1%255D.jpg

@T-Mar, would this give you little more hint on the identity?


Thx

littlebeetle 12-13-13 12:35 AM

Got some indication from others vintage bike community. They are quite sure that this is a Gitane frame.

It's should be a one of these model http://www.gitaneusa.com/images/catalog/1985_pg2.jpg

Another similarity discovered --> http://postimg.org/image/q0x0t12s7/

non-fixie 01-02-14 04:51 AM

4 Attachment(s)
I just came across this thread and checked my spreadsheet. Appears I had this hanging in the rafters, with an identical number format:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357600http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357601http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357602http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357603

Alas, I don't know who built the frame (yet). I had it down as 'a nicely made Japanese or Taiwanese frame, repainted and relabeled, possibly by Bontekoe' for now. Seat post is 26.8. The original color looks to have been blue.

SJX426 01-02-14 07:16 AM

Mystery frames always bring out the best info from BF members! I greatly appreciate the feedback and comparisons as that is where I learn a lot and generate more questions!


LittleBeetle: If I had a mystery frame, I would restore the paint for protection purposes but not add decals that would mislead others. In fact, I have a Trek 610 that was modified when I picked it up and had additional modifications done. Although many of the original decals will be applied, the 610 designators will not as it is no longer a 610 as described by the specs. The SN will provide its roots but that is about all. None of the components will be replacements of what was on the spec. You could have custom decals made to your imagination.

littlebeetle 01-03-14 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 16374952)
I just came across this thread and checked my spreadsheet. Appears I had this hanging in the rafters, with an identical number format:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357600http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357601http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357602http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=357603

Alas, I don't know who built the frame (yet). I had it down as 'a nicely made Japanese or Taiwanese frame, repainted and relabeled, possibly by Bontekoe' for now. Seat post is 26.8. The original color looks to have been blue.

The lugs happen to have much similarity. My bet was taiwanese frame which has a Gitane model copied over.

littlebeetle 01-03-14 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SJX426 (Post 16375084)
Mystery frames always bring out the best info from BF members! I greatly appreciate the feedback and comparisons as that is where I learn a lot and generate more questions!


LittleBeetle: If I had a mystery frame, I would restore the paint for protection purposes but not add decals that would mislead others. In fact, I have a Trek 610 that was modified when I picked it up and had additional modifications done. Although many of the original decals will be applied, the 610 designators will not as it is no longer a 610 as described by the specs. The SN will provide its roots but that is about all. None of the components will be replacements of what was on the spec. You could have custom decals made to your imagination.

thanks for your input.
Indeed, it is good to give a real identification rather than giving it a fake one.

gotten a suggestion from BF member to custom do the decals like such:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/images0...ture%20196.jpg

Hummer 02-17-14 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 16374952)

Alas, I don't know who built the frame (yet). I had it down as 'a nicely made Japanese or Taiwanese frame, repainted and relabeled, possibly by Bontekoe' for now. Seat post is 26.8. The original color looks to have been blue.

non-fixie,

your serial number is a match for a Sekai 4000. Here is a link to some posts about a Sekai 4000 with a similar serial number:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15171667

Read the posts following this also.

Your bike is not an exact match. Brazed on cable eyelets on the top tube, no cut out shapes in the lugs on the top tube. Still very close. Your frame may have been built by Miki, same as Sekai 4000, but for a different brand name and with slightly different specifications.

non-fixie 02-18-14 02:03 AM

Now that's interesting, @Hummer! You've made a bell ring with me that hadn't rung before (but should have). A while ago I posted this thread about a Union frame, which also has a 26.8 seat post and - wait for it - serial number M1B09266.

I never thought to compare the two. I'll do so tonight when I get home.

Hummer 02-20-14 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 16504988)
. . . - wait for it - serial number M1B09266.


Wow! Little more than 300 different. Do they have the same dropouts, lugs and braze-ons?

non-fixie 02-23-14 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hummer (Post 16513306)
Wow! Little more than 300 different. Do they have the same dropouts, lugs and braze-ons?

I finally got to dig up both frames and compare the two. One more mystery solved!

Thanks for the pointer, @Hummer. Both frames are identical. It is safe to say that the faux Bontekoe is a repainted Union Sapporo. These were sold in the late seventies and early eighties and were originally fitted with Shimano 600 arabesque; the original headsets are still present in both frames. Union also had a cheaper model in the lineup in those days with stamped dropouts called Union Sakai, so I'm assuming these came from the same source. The Sapporo carried a Hi-Ten sticker, but some sources suggest there's some Cro-Mo involved, if only the seat tube. The 26.8 seat post diameter certainly backs that up.

I am still curious as to whether these were made especially for Union, or if these were also branded as Sakai or Sekai (or maybe something else again) for other markets.

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-WPPFEC8F.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-JWWN7W3Y.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-CKYOREOL.jpg

http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Grotefoto-JPJB6MIX.jpg

littlebeetle 02-24-14 03:50 AM

great to know you guys managed to solve mystery. @non-fixie ; @Hummer

unlike mine....the bike still sitting in the yard....parts are not complete and facing some missing shipping via ebay..sigh

non-fixie 02-24-14 03:58 AM

Sorry about the hijack, littlebeetle. I hope your parts show up soon and you get to finish the bike.

Hummer 02-24-14 10:49 AM

Also apologies from myself littlebeetle.

Non-fixie, I am a little slow. I just realized that you are in Holland. "The Land of Cheese and Tulips", I thought maybe you were in Wisconsin.

I don't hear much about the Union brand name in western Canada.

There are bicycles here with "PARKER Process MIKI SAKAI Made in Japan" decals. I think, Miki built frames from Sakai, Osaka Prefecture, Japan. These decals are found on several brand names of bicycles.

So I would not be surprised if the Union brand name in Holland also had some frames from Miki. The serial numbers of your bikes are the same format as the Miki frames here.

Three brand names that had Miki Sakai frames:

Sekai from Seattle, Washington, USA (models 4000 and 5000)
Sakai, a house brand of Bloor Cycle, from Toronto, Ontario, Canada (models Star, Select, Ultra, and possibly more)
Rocky Mountain Bicycles from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada (before the brand name was purchased by the Procycle Group) (model Sherpa in 1984, and possibly more)

non-fixie 02-24-14 01:25 PM

Wisconsin, eh? No worries. When I said 'Holland', some people thought I was from Michigan ...:rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info! I've already been browsing a bit and the Sekai 4000 certainly looks like a close relative.


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