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  1. #1
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Frame Identification required

    Guys,

    Came across with a seller in my city who want to let go this frame.

    According to the owner, it is cycles Gitane frame.

    Size:
    Top tube 57 cm
    Seat tube 53 cm
    Bottom bracket serial: F2K 0188
    Headset: Shimano

    Will appreciate if anyone could give your thought based on your experience.

    Thanks.

    side view


    Headset


    Bottle holder


    Internal cabling


    BB


    Serial
    Last edited by littlebeetle; 05-14-13 at 06:39 AM.

  2. #2
    juneeaa memba!
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    Like the proverbial yuppie, I built a couple of French bikes, for the experience. So I ain't an expert, by any means. But, this looks to me like a 1988 gitane avenir, with a repaint. How the heck would I know that? See here

  3. #3
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    very possible: the paint could even be original, the catalog lists it as "white pearl".
    This was a French model, and the catalog shows it with nutted brakes (check that out) and a Huret RD...if yours is an Avenir it should have the Huret stop at '4 o'clock' on the dropout hanger, I would reckon, and probably a Huret branded dropout, too.

    But, since we're talking Gitane, I could be totally off-base

  4. #4
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    very possible: the paint could even be original, the catalog lists it as "white pearl".
    This was a French model, and the catalog shows it with nutted brakes (check that out) and a Huret RD...if yours is an Avenir it should have the Huret stop at '4 o'clock' on the dropout hanger, I would reckon, and probably a Huret branded dropout, too.

    But, since we're talking Gitane, I could be totally off-base
    Hey unworthy1,

    Thank you so much for pointing out the key identity...those photos were snapped by the seller...I plan to pay a visit to him tomorrow and if everything goes well..I will purchase it.

    You mentioned about the nutted brakes..would you able to share me a sample ?

    Huret stop will look like this image?

  5. #5
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Hi luker,

    thanks for the help!

    if this is a gitane, this could be some other well built frame I supposed?

    anyway, really appreciate your help

  6. #6
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    To narrow down the pedigree, you need to determine the BB (35x1 for French, Swiss) and headset threading, steerer tube ID (22.0 French, 22.2 otherwise), BB shell width (probably 68mm), and seat tube OD (28.0mm for French, 28.6mm for almost everyone else). With the forged dropouts and wheelbase adjustment screws, it is probably a butted moly steel frame -- you can verify this by looking for 26.4mm or 27.2mm seat tube ID, depending on whether the OD was 28.0 or 28.6.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
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  7. #7
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebeetle View Post
    Hey unworthy1,

    Thank you so much for pointing out the key identity...those photos were snapped by the seller...I plan to pay a visit to him tomorrow and if everything goes well..I will purchase it.

    You mentioned about the nutted brakes..would you able to share me a sample ?

    Huret stop will look like this image?
    No, that shows a hanger with typical "7-o'clock" tab position, such as found on Campy dropouts as well as most other brands of Italian and Japanese DOs.
    Here's a pic from Velobase that shows Shimano DOs, just for example

    Compare that to the next pic which shows a typical Huret DO, this tab or stop is at the "4-o'clock" position...not saying that eventually Huret may have made some DOs that adopted the more common form, but I haven't seen them. Also that frame might not be the model that came with a Huret RD, so it might have a standard DO...you'll know when you see it.

    Hah, just realized that "7" can look like "4" when you view it from the wrong side...keep your POV on the drive side, my boy!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by unworthy1; 05-12-13 at 11:22 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    To narrow down the pedigree, you need to determine the BB (35x1 for French, Swiss) and headset threading, steerer tube ID (22.0 French, 22.2 otherwise), BB shell width (probably 68mm), and seat tube OD (28.0mm for French, 28.6mm for almost everyone else). With the forged dropouts and wheelbase adjustment screws, it is probably a butted moly steel frame -- you can verify this by looking for 26.4mm or 27.2mm seat tube ID, depending on whether the OD was 28.0 or 28.6.
    Tq very much John!!
    Will take note of all who shared!

    Stay blessed!

  9. #9
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    No, that shows a hanger with typical "7-o'clock" tab position, such as found on Campy dropouts as well as most other brands of Italian and Japanese DOs.
    Here's a pic from Velobase that shows Shimano DOs, just for example

    Compare that to the next pic which shows a typical Huret DO, this tab or stop is at the "4-o'clock" position...not saying that eventually Huret may have made some DOs that adopted the more common form, but I haven't seen them. Also that frame might not be the model that came with a Huret RD, so it might have a standard DO...you'll know when you see it.

    Hah, just realized that "7" can look like "4" when you view it from the wrong side...keep your POV on the drive side, my boy!
    Thanks unworthy1 for the detail pointers..really appreciate that.
    I shall post a closed up picture once i got the frame.

    I offered him $115 and I got the deal

  10. #10
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    While I know little about non-boom era Gitane, that appears to be an Asian serial number format for 1982 or 1992. The latter is by far the better candidate given the dual bottle mounts, internal cable routing and uni-crown fork. Given the era, I wouldn't be surprised if Gitane, like most other European manufacturers, was having a lot of their production done in Asia. There may not be any French indicators.

  11. #11
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    While I know little about non-boom era Gitane, that appears to be an Asian serial number format for 1982 or 1992. The latter is by far the better candidate given the dual bottle mounts, internal cable routing and uni-crown fork. Given the era, I wouldn't be surprised if Gitane, like most other European manufacturers, was having a lot of their production done in Asia. There may not be any French indicators.
    @T-Mar,
    How do you determine that is Asian serial? Any website which can refer?
    I have took the frame today and I again check with the seller, he said he could not remember if this is a gitane or viner. But confirm this is a european frame.

  12. #12
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    I have gotten the frame

    Here are more details that I observed from the frame

    Weight: 4 kg (including BB and headset)

    RD dropout:
    indication - 7 o'clock
    no stamping on the bracket


    Rear brake holder:
    Flat top & bottom


    Rear cabling housing
    Dedicated attached to the chain stay
    Round shape

  13. #13
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebeetle View Post
    @T-Mar,
    How do you determine that is Asian serial? Any website which can refer?
    I have took the frame today and I again check with the seller, he said he could not remember if this is a gitane or viner. But confirm this is a european frame.
    Years and years of dealing with bikes.

    For some reason I was thinking Univega but I see the OP is in Kuala Lumpur, so that is out. I do agree the frame look "Asian" to me (yes those letter go to www.FoxTV.com) looking at the frok crown and internal cable routing. I also agree it is likely closer to a early '90s frame.

    Second thought is maybe a Fuji or Pannasonic. I suspect whatever it is, this model and likely brand was never seen in the US.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  14. #14
    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    Most mid level and higher Gitanes that I encountered in the 80's had better looking lugs (windowed) that what that one has. Lots of them aslo had nice touches like diamond shaped reinforcements at the ends of the seat and chainstay bridges. and the top cable routing comes in and out of the top of the tube, not near to the bottom and to the side as this one has. So this one is not showing the typical "Gitane" signs I would suspect, which makes the possibility of a bike sourced from maybe an Asian subcontractor that have different designs from what they had in France to use. Weird thing is, the frame design looks very similar to later 80's/early 90's Peugeots too...

  15. #15
    What??? Only 2 wheels? jimmuller's Avatar
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    Regardless of the heritage, it looks like it should be a very nice bike.
    Real cyclists use toe clips.
    jimmuller

  16. #16
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmuller View Post
    Regardless of the heritage, it looks like it should be a very nice bike.
    Well said...ultimately I want to restore to its original look (colors and sticker). Therefore was trying anyway I can to find the identity bike.

    After all, I believe this could be a good frame back then as it has double bottle mounts and quite a good finishing at the joints.

    I am not too sure 4kg for this frame would consider light for classic road bike?

  17. #17
    Stop reading my posts! unworthy1's Avatar
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    all I can say is now that I see these pix I doubt that it's a Gitane, also doubt that it's a Viner, but I suppose it could be almost ANY brand that sourced frames from an Asian contractor in the late 80s or later. The brakebridge looks similar to a Cinelli or GPM unit, but the dropouts look unlike any I'm familiar with (see those sharp corners on the raised forging?), similar to a lot of known shorty DOs, yet different...maybe they've been modified.
    Usually associate that "slot" style BB mech with cheaper Asian frames...

    I wonder if it this has an Australian connection?
    Last edited by unworthy1; 05-14-13 at 09:23 AM.

  18. #18
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
    all I can say is now that I see these pix I doubt that it's a Gitane, also doubt that it's a Viner, but I suppose it could be almost ANY brand that sourced frames from an Asian contractor in the late 80s or later. The brakebridge looks similar to a Cinelli or GPM unit, but the dropouts look unlike any I'm familiar with (see those sharp corners on the raised forging?), similar to a lot of known shorty DOs, yet different...maybe they've been modified.
    Usually associate that "slot" style BB mech with cheaper Asian frames...

    I wonder if it this has an Australian connection?
    Thanks again for the detail highlighted...Maybe most of you are accurate, this frame could be an Asian subcontractor made frame and is using a lower grade DO's.

    Anyway, I am still happy with it and will look forward to do a repaint and shop for classic stuffs to fit into the bike

  19. #19
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    I find that the shifters mounts are rusted..can sandpaper or metal polish do the job to restored it like this?
    Last edited by littlebeetle; 05-15-13 at 01:43 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebeetle View Post
    @T-Mar,
    How do you determine that is Asian serial? Any website which can refer?
    I have took the frame today and I again check with the seller, he said he could not remember if this is a gitane or viner. But confirm this is a european frame.
    I've been collecting and studying serial numberS for a number of years and, to date, have identified and decyphered the serial numbers for approsimately 50 different Asian brands, along with several non-Asian brands. If you want to see some examples of my work, check out the Serial Number Database threads for Centurion, Fuji and Nishiki, on this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
    ...Second thought is maybe a Fuji or Pannasonic. I suspect whatever it is, this model and likely brand was never seen in the US.
    My initial thoughts were Fuji too. The serial number format is very similar to that used by Fuji in the 1990s, but is not identical. There are one too many characters. However, that could be an accident, as the OP does show a space in his original post. However, I would think that by this time Fuji would have been producing Fuji branded dropouts and not using generic versions. Still, I can't say that with absolute certainty and therefore cannot rule out a Fuji.

  21. #21
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
    I've been collecting and studying serial numberS for a number of years and, to date, have identified and decyphered the serial numbers for approsimately 50 different Asian brands, along with several non-Asian brands. If you want to see some examples of my work, check out the Serial Number Database threads for Centurion, Fuji and Nishiki, on this forum.



    My initial thoughts were Fuji too. The serial number format is very similar to that used by Fuji in the 1990s, but is not identical. There are one too many characters. However, that could be an accident, as the OP does show a space in his original post. However, I would think that by this time Fuji would have been producing Fuji branded dropouts and not using generic versions. Still, I can't say that with absolute certainty and therefore cannot rule out a Fuji.
    Brilliant....I am amazed that you have quite a good database list on classic serial numbers.

    I am getting more interested to find out further about the real identity of this frame.
    Like some quoted, this frame which comes with internal routing brake cable, dual bottle mount...might be a fairly good frame.
    Though it might not have a perfect DO's...the frame weight at 4KG.

    Back then, this weight of frame consider normal? Means any lower end road bike would also weight the same.

    Thx

  22. #22
    category ii hoarder orangeology's Avatar
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    i was always starting from the 'diamond' shaped seatstay top reinforcement as a Gitane signifier.
    (with exceptions, of course)

    to my 'untrained' eyes, the frame looks 80's Japan-made
    with its typical mixture-hybride-mish-mash of all different kind european signifiers details.
    (shown across lotta major brand names).

    i mean, regardless, it will come out a beautiful project for sure.
    "versatile" to any components group in terms of style or functionality,
    therefore easier to find the right components—when determined— right?
    Last edited by orangeology; 05-15-13 at 09:41 AM. Reason: edit

  23. #23
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    4 kg. is very heavy for a frame. It's not quite as bad if you're talking as rec'd condition, with the fork, headset and bottom bracket. The best indicator for frame quality is the required seat post/internal seat tube diameter, though given the apparent era, even the entry level sport models were using seamed, butted CrMo, so it may not prove anything.

  24. #24
    Bianchi Goddess Bianchigirll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebeetle View Post
    I find that the shifters mounts are rusted..can sandpaper or metal polish do the job to restored it like this?
    very fine sandpaper or steel wool will do the trick.
    Bianchis '87 Sport SX, '90 Proto (2), '91 Boarala 'cross, '93 Project 3, '88 Trofeo, '86 Volpe, '89 Axis, '79 Mixte SOLD, '99 Mega Pro XL Ti, '97 Ti Megatube, , '90 something Vento 603,

    Others but still loved,; '80 RIGI, '80 Batavus Professional, '87 Cornelo, '86 Bertoni (sold), '09 Motobecane SS, '98 Hetchins M.O., '09 K2 Mainframe, '89 Trek 2000, '?? Jane Doe (still on the drawing board), '90ish Haro Escape

  25. #25
    Senior Member littlebeetle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangeology View Post
    i was always starting from the 'diamond' shaped seatstay top reinforcement as a Gitane signifier.
    (with exceptions, of course)

    to my 'untrained' eyes, the frame looks 80's Japan-made
    with its typical mixture-hybride-mish-mash of all different kind european signifiers details.
    (shown across lotta major brand names).

    i mean, regardless, it will come out a beautiful project for sure.
    "versatile" to any components group in terms of style or functionality,
    therefore easier to find the right components—when determined— right?
    Yes, I would want to make it a beautiful project!

    Next is to brain what color should I go forward?
    Noticed that classic are usually in Blue,Red,White...sometimes yellow (which I am considering)

    I would like to confirm, this frame should be able to fit Shimao's or Campy groupset ??

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