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Old 02-16-14, 10:42 AM   #101
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Them's fighting words--let's have an argument! I'll see you in the playground behind A&S--I double dog dare ya!

Sure we individually lack knowledge/appreciation for some areas (many areas in my case) but as a group I think we pretty well cover it. As for your example of Dutch bikes, prices for makers like Reus or Ko Zieleman on eBay or the marktplats.nl site suggest they are very well appreciated. Even if just a few people are 'in the know,' that's a solid market for a bike that is uncommon. Lots more people know about the Centurion Ironman, but there are more of them around, too. Try putting a nice Ironman up on eBay at $125 BIN and see how long it lasts.
You smell of eldar berries! As a group, yes - but I know dang well I've missed out when things were under my radar. I had a shot at a Henry James, and I had no idea what that meant then.
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Old 02-16-14, 11:07 AM   #102
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You smell of eldar berries! As a group, yes - but I know dang well I've missed out when things were under my radar. I had a shot at a Henry James, and I had no idea what that meant then.
Holy crap, a Henry James?!?!

ps: I know, about the elderberries. There's nothing I can do, it's genetic, from my father's side.
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Old 02-16-14, 04:07 PM   #103
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Did anyone mention "Schwinn Paramount" in this thread? They're not nearly as bad as the word"Schwinn" would imply.
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Old 02-16-14, 08:07 PM   #104
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The 80s Nashbar bikes were pretty good. I still have my old Sport EX that came with Shimano 600 components and was built up with Ishiwata tubes. Very nice bike for the money. Can't imagine anyone spending moe than a C note on one now.
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Old 02-16-14, 08:44 PM   #105
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Did anyone mention "Schwinn Paramount" in this thread? They're not nearly as bad as the word"Schwinn" would imply.
Where does the word Schwinn mean bad? Only the low end bikes like Varsity, Continental, Suburban, Traveler, and a couple of others were horrid bikes, but they all some really nice bikes that ARE NOT sleeper bikes, the Paramount is a huge non sleeper, others like the Superior, Peloton, Prologue, Tempo, Super Sport, Madison, and the Prelude are not under the radar at least for most people who know bikes.
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Old 02-16-14, 09:36 PM   #106
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I would add Bertoni to the list. I have an SL, a Matrix & a MAX...all great imho. Perhaps Grandis is another lesser known (in the US at least) brand.
I'd put Rossin on there, as well. Everyone I have known who owns one says they are fantastic and a blast to ride, but cannot sell them high. One is a well-known former member who knows great rides, being a famous DeRosa devotee. Or have I already said too much?
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Old 02-16-14, 09:39 PM   #107
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Is ANY bike really 'under the radar' when it comes to this group?

I'm seeing people list bikes above that have multiple threads here--like the Dave Scott Ironman.

Now this is not talking about a 'general audience,' but they don't know anything about bikes anyway, other than 'Schwinn' and maybe 'Raleigh.'
Yes, I believe there are hundreds if not more small, local hand builders that did or do an excellent job, but are truly unknown.
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Old 02-16-14, 10:52 PM   #108
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I'd put Rossin on there, as well. Everyone I have known who owns one says they are fantastic and a blast to ride, but cannot sell them high. One is a well-known former member who knows great rides, being a famous DeRosa devotee. Or have I already said too much?
My boss at the bike shop, stole a Ghibli from a customer for $125 off of the price of a Specialized Expedition hybrid. The same day he had me check them out on ebay. An older Cyclart repainted Ghibli was in the completed auctions, complete with chips and scratches, for $849 (bare frame). I guess it depends on who you offer them up to?,,,,BD

This is the trade in bike, and the auction bike was the same paint scheme, but a Cyclart repaint.


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Old 02-17-14, 12:17 AM   #109
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I'd put Rossin on there, as well. Everyone I have known who owns one says they are fantastic and a blast to ride, but cannot sell them high. One is a well-known former member who knows great rides, being a famous DeRosa devotee. Or have I already said too much?
Rossin is one of the Italian Bikes I used to want way back when. I don't know that I'd call them "Under the Radar" though.....Not any more than my first road bike: An Italvega.

I'm thinking more like Schwinn Super Sport or a mid '80s or later Le Tour for something less exotic and less pricey. Paramounts are usually better known and sought after.
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Old 02-17-14, 12:21 AM   #110
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Lotus, Shogun and Centurion's.

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Old 02-17-14, 12:25 AM   #111
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Zullo

Deserves closer attention and admiration.

Jeeezus that's sweeet
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Old 02-17-14, 05:23 AM   #112
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I want the saddle?,,,,BD
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Old 02-17-14, 05:25 AM   #113
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Where does the word Schwinn mean bad? Only the low end bikes like Varsity, Continental, Suburban, Traveler, and a couple of others were horrid bikes, but they all some really nice bikes that ARE NOT sleeper bikes, the Paramount is a huge non sleeper, others like the Superior, Peloton, Prologue, Tempo, Super Sport, Madison, and the Prelude are not under the radar at least for most people who know bikes.
Agreed, my first serious road bike was a Prelude. It was a mid to low level Schwinn but got me hooked. I couldn't afford a Paramount but surprisingly found used Waterfords less expensive than Paramounts. Yet Waterford built a lot of them. Years ago I picked up a 95 1200 with Chorus 8 sp 2 wheelsets and a box of spares for under $600. I sold off everything but the frame, headset and 1 wheelset for more than I paid for the bike. I have a gorgeous Reynolds 753 bike now.

Waterfords are underrated and don't go used for near what they should.
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Old 02-17-14, 07:52 AM   #114
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Where does the word Schwinn mean bad? Only the low end bikes like Varsity, Continental, Suburban, Traveler, and a couple of others were horrid bikes,....
Them's fighting words--let's have an argument! I'll see you in the playground behind A&S--I double dog dare ya!

I'm biased, but I like my Suburban. It's unpretentious, nicely finished, and with its fenders, northroads and sprung mattress saddle, well-suited to it's intended purpose as a neighborhood cruiser for (ahem) mature riders. - Not unlike a Raleigh Sports in a way (and weighing almost as much).

I don't consider it an "under the radar" bike though. There is still a good demand for these bikes BECAUSE of their audience and especially the Schwinn name.
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Old 02-17-14, 07:53 AM   #115
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Them's fighting words--let's have an argument! I'll see you in the playground behind A&S--I double dog dare ya! .
That would make a Great signature lline, Al.
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Old 02-17-14, 02:04 PM   #116
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The racks are Blackburns... one of these days I will build some custom racks but these have been serving me really well.

Rear is a pretty standard mount with the rack and fenders stays having their own eyelets, at the front the upper rack uses one set of eyelets and the lowrider shares an eyelet with the fender stays.

The rear fenders also mounts to the frame with eyelets at the seatstay and chainstay bridge which eliminates the need for a second rear fender stay.

The Cascade came with 6mm eyelets instead of the more standard 5mm which makes them much stronger by about 50%, the Blackburn racks had to have their mounts drilled out that extra mm to fit.

One of these days I will add another bottle mount under the downtube and another on the seat tube and then the bike will see some new powder coat... at this time I will probably build an integrated rear rack and a custom front rack.
Thanks Sixty Fiver, all helpful info. Sorry for the delay in response, busy applying for jobs.
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Old 02-17-14, 02:49 PM   #117
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from another volume based company, a vote for the Panasonic Team series of bikes
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Old 02-18-14, 01:40 PM   #118
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I have one mentioned. My 1986 Schwinn Prelude. It has a Tenax frame but unlike its big brothers, the Tempo, & Super Sport it came with 27 X 1 inch wheels and Suntour Cyclone shifting. I rode it that way all last year. Great ride but I got tired of the seeing the comments about Preludes not having 700 C Wheels and mid level shifting so it was not considered a real bike. so here is my upgraded 1986 Superbe Prelude ready for Spring. Take that!! LOL



Upgraded to 700 C rims with Suntour Hubs, Suntour New Winner Freewheel, Suntour Superbe Pro shifting and Suntour Superbe pedals. I love my bike.
Gorgeous Prelude!!!!
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Old 02-18-14, 01:42 PM   #119
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Tenax Schwinns are high on my list too! Which is the very reason why I built this one from the frame up. Group is Sante from an 88 Circuit, with pearl orange powder coat. I even used two different colors of cable housing, to bring out the two tone brake calipers(white on one arm, and silver on the other) I don't ride it near as much as I should, but it puts a smile on my face whenever I jump on it. It was a single speed first, before the Sante. It was light, responsive, and floated for lack of a better word.,,,,BD

LOVE this bike!~ 1985 Schwinn Super Sport, originally white with gold pearl, and Shimano 600 IIRC?









Another beautiful schwinn!!!!
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Old 02-18-14, 01:47 PM   #120
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Lotus, Shogun and Centurion's.
Agreed on the Lotus and Shogun. Around here, though,(Oregon) Centurions are not under the radar. Everyone and his uncle thinks that just the name Centurion commands at least $250, and if it's a late 80s Ironman(even though there were thousands made and they're easy to find) people here seem to think they're 'rare' and ask ridiculous $350+ for well used Ironmans.

However, around the rest of the country, when I look at craigslist search engines, Centurions seem to be much more reasonably priced.....so maybe it's just here on the west coast.
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Old 02-18-14, 06:37 PM   #121
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STEVE WHITLATCH; I just noticed the thread about Cyclone being mid level shifting...there wasn't any difference between the Cyclone and the Superbe, they used exactly the same mechanicals with the Superbe using stiffer knuckles, wider parallelogram plates and stainless steel pivot pins...changes 99% of the users couldn't even feel, those Cyclones shifted far better than any other top of the line component manufacture made including Campy Record. The Cyclone wasn't even close to mid level, more like top of the line in the world with Superbe being a tad better than that! Heck the true "mid level" derailleur was the V series and those performed better than any other top of the line component manufacture product.
So whoever told you that Cyclone was mid level stuff needed their head examined.

Add to that needing heads examined comment the Prelude using the Tenax tubing was Columbus SL tubing which was good stuff, not the best in the racing world of steel but really nice stuff in the consumer market. The tubeset and fork weighed around 5.4 pounds. I have Tenax tubing on my Le Tour Luxe which was the best touring tubeset Schwinn offered on their best Voyager line of touring bikes, my touring bike weighs 25 pounds, but the Prelude with a lighter frame and components than mine weighed 24 pounds which isn't bad at all for the time period. I would say that frame is high mid level frame not mid level. The higher level Tempo used the same exact frame as your Prelude but weighed 2 pounds less...the weight savings came from the fork being cromoly instead of high tensile steel, wheels and components the frame/fork had the same weight.

The Super Sport for years was just a mid level bike for year, but Schwinn liked to do weird things so in 85 they jazzed the crap out of your bike and dropped the weight from 26.5 to 24 the previous year of yours then to 22 pounds for yours, and it's a beautiful bike...but it has the Tenax frame just as your Prelude has! The fork is same as the Tempo but with a different crown. 85 was a weird year for Schwinn, I have a 85 Le Tour Luxe and they did the same thing, jazzed it up, it has the same frame as the next step up Voyager had but had the same components as the higher level Voyager SP, again the weight difference of one pound between the Le Tour Luxe and the Voyagers is the fork except mine came out of the factory with 40 spoke wheels all around instead of the spec'd 40 rear and 36 front like the Voyagers and mine was suppose to have, plus they used double butted spokes all around which they didn't do with the Voyagers. So the Voyagers ended up being only a pound lighter than mine. The touring frames used Tenax Columbus SP which was thicker tubing then the SL for more weight carrying capacity.

Sorry a little rambling about the history, I'm not sure if it's 100% correct but at least is close enough.
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Old 02-18-14, 06:39 PM   #122
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STEVE WHITLATCH; I just noticed the thread about Cyclone being mid level shifting...there wasn't any difference between the Cyclone and the Superbe, they used exactly the same mechanicals with the Superbe using stiffer knuckles, wider parallelogram plates and stainless steel pivot pins...changes 99% of the users couldn't even feel, those Cyclones shifted far better than any other top of the line component manufacture made including Campy Record. The Cyclone wasn't even close to mid level, more like top of the line in the world with Superbe being a tad better than that! Heck the true "mid level" derailleur was the V series and those performed better than any other top of the line component manufacture product.
So whoever told you that Cyclone was mid level stuff needed their head examined.

Add to that needing heads examined comment the Prelude using the Tenax tubing was Columbus SL tubing which was good stuff, not the best in the racing world of steel but really nice stuff in the consumer market. The tubeset and fork weighed around 5.4 pounds. I have Tenax tubing on my Le Tour Luxe which was the best touring tubeset Schwinn offered on their best Voyager line of touring bikes, my touring bike weighs 25 pounds, but the Prelude with a lighter frame and components than mine weighed 24 pounds which isn't bad at all for the time period. I would say that frame is high mid level frame not mid level. The higher level Tempo used the same exact frame as your Prelude but weighed 2 pounds less...the weight savings came from the fork being cromoly instead of high tensile steel, wheels and components the frame/fork had the same weight.

The Super Sport for years was just a mid level bike for year, but Schwinn liked to do weird things so in 85 they jazzed the crap out of your bike and dropped the weight from 26.5 to 24 the previous year of yours then to 22 pounds for yours, and it's a beautiful bike...but it has the Tenax frame just as your Prelude has! The fork is same as the Tempo but with a different crown. 85 was a weird year for Schwinn, I have a 85 Le Tour Luxe and they did the same thing, jazzed it up, it has the same frame as the next step up Voyager had but had the same components as the higher level Voyager SP, again the weight difference of one pound between the Le Tour Luxe and the Voyagers is the fork except mine came out of the factory with 40 spoke wheels all around instead of the spec'd 40 rear and 36 front like the Voyagers and mine was suppose to have, plus they used double butted spokes all around which they didn't do with the Voyagers. So the Voyagers ended up being only a pound lighter than mine. The touring frames used Tenax Columbus SP which was thicker tubing then the SL for more weight carrying capacity.

Sorry a little rambling about the history, I'm not sure if it's 100% correct but at least is close enough.
Actually in some recent information etc it looks like Tenax might just be Chromor labled differently instead of SL/SP, there's a thread somewhere on this.. but it wasn't definitive to me and I prefer to think it's SL.

Edit: And I'd have to say Tempos and Super Sports are still semi under the radar.. if all us Tenax owners could just keep our mouths shut!
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Old 02-18-14, 06:47 PM   #123
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However, around the rest of the country, when I look at craigslist search engines, Centurions seem to be much more reasonably priced.....so maybe it's just here on the west coast.
You nailed it. Anything West of the Rockies has a premium, which grows as you proceed further West and/or North. !?!
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Old 02-18-14, 06:51 PM   #124
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@ rekmeyata, Cyclone was the TOTL for a generation or 2, before they developed Superbe as the higher than TOTL. So Superbe was better than the best. And Superbe Pro was even better.
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Old 02-18-14, 07:50 PM   #125
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Actually in some recent information etc it looks like Tenax might just be Chromor labled differently instead of SL/SP, there's a thread somewhere on this.. but it wasn't definitive to me and I prefer to think it's SL.

Edit: And I'd have to say Tempos and Super Sports are still semi under the radar.. if all us Tenax owners could just keep our mouths shut!
All the history I have ever read about Tenax was that they were blemished SL or SP Columbus tubing, the only thing I could find that wasn't forum based was this: http://search.bikelist.org/beta/View....aspx?id=58308

If you scan down a bit you'll read this bit of history:

"According to an old Bicycling! article from the mid-80s, Tenax was
essentially the same as SP (had the same wall thicknesses, etc.) but had
looser quality controls. So it was double butted seamless Cyclex (sp?)
steel. I think Schwinn bought all of it/was the exclusive user of it. Any
frame from made of Tenax should be pretty stout, especially in smaller
sizes."

I've read a lot of stuff on forums in regards to this, and there was some years ago a guy who use to be one of the heads of Schwinn commented on a forum said the same basic thing as I quoted above.

And VeloBase has this: http://www.velobase.com/ViewFramePar...c-896abd64ba6f

And then there's this: http://mauisvintage.blogspot.com/201...-revealed.html

My understanding from an old Schwinn store owner was that Tenax used Columbus SL and SP depending on the bike, the touring bikes got the SP, and the racing road bikes got the SL with the exception being larger sized racing bikes got the SP too.

Schwinn did the same thing Trek did in the 80's, Schwinn sourced out to Columbus to have a tubeset built for them exclusively for a slight discount than the branded Columbus SL or SL; Trek did the same thing with the Reynolds 531cs, cs was only sold by Trek for slight discount, although after Trek stopped using it there was some inventory left and some custom builders used it...the same thing happened to Tenax.

So I tend to think and believe that it was indeed Columbus SL or SP.
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