TurboJ

I'm having a problem with chain clearance on my ~'95 Coppi steel frame fitted with a 2013 Campy Veloce 10-speed gears.

I have browsed all the way through the 'Old steel frame with STIs/Ergos' -topic and as you know, there is a huge amount of older frames with modern gears out there.
Now I would like to know exactly what YOU have done to accomodate a 10- or even 11-speed cassette on an older frame.

I have already received a lot of helpful answers on the 'bicycle mechanics' -forum, but I'd like to hear more from people's own experience; how did your solution work in practice.

In my build, the chain is rubbing on the seat stay on the small sprocket (a 12-tooth). I have been suggested adding a spacer to the end of the axle, but I'm still not sure if that's a safe thing to do (some mechanics also told me not to). Also, filing some metal off the very lowest part of the seat stay could work, but I just can't be sure if I can do that safely either, since any filing will always be permanent, and if I puncture the stay tube while doing that, well, I'm just 100% screwed.

So, how did YOU do it, and how has it worked in your case?

mapleleafs-13 

i would never touch or alter anything on the frame in terms of filing.

RubberLegs

My son's 86 Team Fugi has a 9 speed cassette wheel slapped in there (slight flex of frame to get it in, no coldsetting)...NO alterations, works just fine with a new 9 speed chain in Friction Mode...Suntour Sprint (and now Superbe) RD, Suntour Sprint FD, Sprint DT Shifters, Sprint Crankset.

RFC

IMHO, the mechanic was right. If there is just a little rub, slip a crank bolt washer over the axle and see if that gives you enough clearance. I've done this successfully several times.

Catnap 

yeah, i've done this with many different bikes. You could also take the frame to a shop and see if they can spread the rear triangle a little more. DO NOT file your seatstay, that's not a good idea.

PlanoFuji

I just put together a early 80's Raleigh mixte where I had this problem. First I used a 10mm washer to provide a little spacing since the problem was the chain rubbing on the nut that holds the derailleur hanger to the dropouts. That didn't solve the problem at first, but I realized that the later issue was a result of the wheel not being 'true' in the frame due to the wide latitude in position on the left side drop out.

Cougrrcj

Yes, but not to the extent you're talking... I upgraded my '75 Fuji S-10S 10-spd (2x5) to an 18-spd (3x6), but that was in the mid-80s... That's as far as I'm going, too. Simple drop-in conversion. No frame tweaking involved with my upgrades.

Bill Kapaun

It's more sanitary to use a spacer UNDER the lock nut.
https://wheelsmfg.com/axle-spacers.html

You aren't fight a loose washer when trying to install the wheel in a frame that may need to be spread a bit.

I had a similar issue with an early 70's Takara that I converted to 9 speed.
A 1mm spacer did the trick.
Theoretically, you'd have to redish 1/2mm, but why bother?

20grit

Are you running a triple on the front? If so, does it do this with a double?

rowebr

Hi TurboJ,

If the chain rubbing is only a problem on the smallest rear sprocket, you could simply set the high gear limit stop on the rear derailleur to stop at the 2nd smallest sprocket. Of all the sprockets, you'll miss the smallest one the least. On your 10-speed Campy the 2nd smallest sprocket is probably 13 tooth right? That should be just fine for your highest gear.

I did this on my '81 Bianchi which has a modern 9-speed cassette because the chain gets really close to the protruding end of a fender bolt when in the smallest sprocket. I never bothered to find a smaller bolt because I never use the 12-tooth sprocket anyway.

shoota 

I agree with this.

lostarchitect 

Spacer. No filing. Please, no filing.

TurboJ

Can this be done on all hubs? My mechanic told me it probably cannot be done on my Miche RG2 hub, because the design doesn't allow the axle to be moved within the hub.



No, it's a double. 50/34 compact, and the rear is 12-25, so the chain doesn't even reach very high up compared to some popular gearing options.


...

Anyway, I was able to source a spacer of 1.25 mm, and it has 'locking grooves' on both sides. I take it that no one has experienced any dangerous rear wheel issues with using such a spacer?
My concern is that using a spacer would only leave so little of the axle stub going into the dropout, so I'm thinking the wheel may not stay in place as reliably as it should, or that the axle becomes damaged more easily because of the load affecting a shorter piece of the axle. BTW, I'm 200 lbs currently, so that doesn't help..

rccardr 

You should be fine if there's more than a mm or so of axle stub sticking out, but I'd be more comfortable with using a 1mm spacer. Easy to find.

Velognome 

For a moment I wanted to run 9x2 indexed with Brifters on a '50's British frame....I always revert back to not going more than 5 years beyond the original build date nor making the frame something it's not, like a racer made into a tourer...that way nothing rubs and I'm not tempted to destroy someone's perfectly good work with a file.

Pars 

As always, the late great Sheldon Brown has some thoughts on this:

https://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

As rccardr noted, try a 1mm spacer on the drive side. I would be comfortable with 1mm or more axle protrusion into the dropout, and I weigh 185 or so. I would also search out his article on skewers though, as modern skewers typically do not have the clamping force of vintage enclosed cam skewers.

Found it:

https://sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html

Modern hubs (SIS or Ergo) are designed for frames with vertical dropouts. Since you are retrofitting a vintage frame, it probably has horizontal drops, where the wheel can be moved forward or back in the dropout (sometimes the dropouts have adjusters as well). I would probably use some vintage skewers in this case, though I am sure many of the conversions here just use the skewers that came with the hubs/wheels. Try it and see how it works.

RobbieTunes

I have not had a problem, yet, on many of these conversions. On two, I had some rubbing, and added a washer (to each side). A short time later, I took the washers out and the problem did not resurface. I have no idea why.

The closest I've come to having one rub, since is a Kestrel, of all things.

If it didn't rub with a freewheel, which often has a larger outside cog, and about the same "spacing" outside of that smallest cog, it generally shouldn't rub on a freehub/cassette. Sometimes, there is a smaller "gap" between the outer cassette and where the axle inserts into the freehub, and the smaller modern cogs tuck up into that gap, especially 11t cogs.

First, I'd check for any spacers on the L side that you can remove.
Since you can't move the axle in the freehub, I'd then defer to Sheldon Brown's method.

A '95 Coppi should already be spaced for 130mm rear and should not have any problems. Try taking everything apart and putting it back together. Sometimes, this works.

Michael Angelo 

[h=2]How have you fitted modern gears to your vintage frame?....Carefully[/h]

John E

This is similar to the problem some of us have when fitting a 7-speed freewheel onto a hub w/ a 126mm OLD axle. Given sufficient overlap between the axle and the dropouts, the ideal solution is a 1mm spacer on the driver side and 0.5mm recentering of the rim and the axle with respect to the hub shell.

bykemike 

I'm in the process of refitting just about everything on the '86 Nishiki Altron I just purchased. I am doing it all this week and have most of the parts in my shop right now. I've got a nice set of 105 hubs laced to a set of Mavic open pro rims, a set of Ultegra Brifters, an Ultegra BB, a Hollowtech triple crankset, an Ultegra RD, a Tiagra triple FD, a set of Ultegra brakes, a threadless headset converter, an Eleven 81 handle bar stem, a set of Specialized 44 drop bars, bar tape, tires, cables etc, etc. I'll post a picture soon, planning to do the assembly this weekend. This thing is either going to be sweet or sort of a mess but it has been fun and very informative up to this point..cost too much I can tell you that.

Road Fan

After installing such a spacer, sometimes the driver side stub is shorter than one would like. Sometimes I've let it be, others I've loosened the locknut on both ends of the axle and repositioned the axle with respect to the cones, then retightened and adjusted the cones. After a couple of tries, you can get the stubs equal, the hub spaced over, and the bearing readjusted at least as well as new. I think 60% of good bike mechanics is finagling with it until it is the way you want it and works correctly.

DIMcyclist

I think it all depends on how you're going to ride it... I think my only rule (for history's sake) would be: never screw up a mint-condition bike.

It would be something like a crime against history to re-tool some vintage frames (say- a classic Cinelli, a Vent Noir, or something beautifully handmade), but others more mass-produced or ubiquitous: grind away; experiment and enjoy without regrets- feel free to leave your mark on it. If they were made by the tens of thousands, what matter if one of them becomes deeply personalized?

My 650B Trek 820 was one massive series of modifications (--and headaches! My Panasonic CB-620 will be even more so), but the result is a very sweet daily ride.

TurboJ

Interesting. The seller also told me the frame had a rear sizing of 130 mm, but my measures show that it's actually 126 mm, exactly.
That's funny considering these frames were never made until 1994 when Masciaghi aquired the rights to the 'Fausto Coppi' trade mark.

I'm also slightly curious as to how far I can stretch the chain stays before a cold setting would become mandatory..
Now the 130 mm axle goes in quite easily, no force required, but if I add another 2.5 mm to the axle ( the spacers are required on moth sides, right? )
, I would assume that stretch might just be too much.

And no, there are no removable spacers on the hub either, so no luck there.

If I have to ditch the idea of using the small sprocket altogether, then the gear cable will get pretty loose once I accidentally try to click onto the 'missing click'
on the shifter (which will happen). Will this loosening of the cable not screw with my indexing adjustment?

I sure hope I will be able to run this as full 10-speed.. That's what I bought the frameset for, after all.
Yes, I know the small sprocket is the one I'm going to use the least, but I did make some very careful calculations to find my perfect gearing combo, and I'd hate to lose the top end,
which I will need one day for sure (on a compact crankset, mind you).

TurboJ

Ahh, OK... So I don't need two spacers anyway... How crucial is that 0.5 mm recentering? I just got my rear wheel trued my a mechanic.