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  1. #51
    car guy, recovering aixaix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iab View Post
    Looking at a pile of dog crap conveys feeling. Doesn't make it art.
    Art/not art isn't the point here. Many of us enjoy looking at bikes for the feelings we get when doing so. When that enjoyment is great enough, owning the bike is a good deal, whether it is ridden or not.
    Michael Shiffer
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  2. #52
    billy chuck eschlwc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iab View Post
    Looking at a pile of dog crap conveys feeling. Doesn't make it art.
    not really. but it depends where it is and how it's presented. duchamp used a urinal, and it's art the way it's presented. he could have used a pile of crap, i suppose.

    my keeper bikes are more artistic with their beautiful paint schemes, polished aluminum, excellent craftsmanship, and simple, elegant engineering.

    i look at a shiny campy record hub and see art. you may not, and that's ok, i guess. but if i were more caring, i would feel pity for you like i would if you saw a fascinating magritte and thought, "that looks just like dog crap." a normal person can distinguish between thoughtfully constructed beauty and objects more common.

  3. #53
    iab
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschlwc View Post
    not really. but it depends where it is and how it's presented. duchamp used a urinal, and it's art the way it's presented. he could have used a pile of crap, i suppose.

    my keeper bikes are more artistic with their beautiful paint schemes, polished aluminum, excellent craftsmanship, and simple, elegant engineering.

    i look at a shiny campy record hub and see art. you may not, and that's ok, i guess. but if i were more caring, i would feel pity for you like i would if you saw a fascinating magritte and thought, "that looks just like dog crap." a normal person can distinguish between thoughtfully constructed beauty and objects more common.
    Again. Does not make it art.

    And you can take your pity and put it with your ignorance of art.

  4. #54
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Once again, a discussion has devolved into a nasty exchange thanks to a member who seems to like to argue for the sake or argument.
    On the subject of what constitutes ART, for Kriest's sake.
    Last edited by rootboy; 10-04-13 at 07:04 AM.

  5. #55
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Let me preface my comment by saying that you can do whatever you want with your bikes. I'm not telling you what to do.

    For me, there are only a few kinds of bikes that should be only wall hangers and not riders. They are: Broken bikes that can't be fixed, true museum pieces (as in, historically significant in some way), and bikes that are somehow so fragile that they could easily become broken bikes that can't be fixed.

    I don't own any bikes like this, and I wouldn't want to. I think a bicycle, as a functional object, loses some of its appeal when it becomes non functional. I'm not advocating you commute every day on your 1960 Cinelli, but I am advocating you ride it now and again. I ride my 1964 JRJ a couple times a month at least. And sometimes I even commute on it! I also understand that sometimes people get injured or ill and can't ride anymore, and it's tough to pass on your beloved bikes. I get that. But I really think a person in this situation should consider allowing trusted friends or relatives to at least take their bikes out once in a while so someone gets the experience of enjoying those fine rides.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  6. #56
    incazzare. lostarchitect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iab View Post
    Again. Does not make it art.

    People often confuse art with craft. Bicycles can be very fine craft, IMO.
    1964 JRJ (Bob Jackson) San Remo Plus, 1989 Trek 520, 2000ish Colian (Colin Laing), 2013 Velo Orange Pass Hunter

  7. #57
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iab View Post
    Looking at a pile of dog crap conveys feeling. Doesn't make it art.
    Art is an abstract concept, and what is "art" depends on many things, not just your narrow minded opinion. Spare me the cliche "dog crap" analogy. Is music not art? Is poetry not art? How does this differ from the level of expression some builders put into their bicycles? Is it because a bicycle has function other than just "art for art's sake"? Bullhockey if you ask me.

    “He who works with his hands is a laborer.
    He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
    He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.”
    ― St. Francis of Assisi

    Bicycles can be art, and I will not accept an argument against it unless you can provide a concise and clear explanation of what exactly "art" is, rather than telling us what it isn't.
    Last edited by cobrabyte; 10-04-13 at 05:13 PM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Drillium Dude's Avatar
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    Well stated, CB - great reference, too.

    I have riders and I have wall-hangers. One hanger isn't finished (the '69 Masi Special) and the other is too light for my current 188lbs (the drillium Alpina)

    Come to think of it, all of them save the Medici are currently wall-hangers because they're back stateside awaiting my return. But they'll all get ridden once I get my grubby hands back on them.

    DD
    My Flickr pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30331021@N08/

    "You can't buy happiness, but you can buy a bike and that's pretty close"

  9. #59
    Senior Member southpawboston's Avatar
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    People hang photos of loved ones on their walls, and there's usually no argument there about them being art-- they're not. How has this devolved into a discussion of what's worthy to hang on walls?

  10. #60
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Hey. The pics I take of my loved ones are art.

    This is my uncle Art.

    No wait...this is my uncle, making art.


  11. #61
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Wait a minute. That's NOT ART!

    .


    (that's my other uncle. Stevie. He thinks he knows a lot about Art..
    but they hardly know each other...)
    Last edited by rootboy; 10-04-13 at 03:45 PM.

  12. #62
    billy chuck eschlwc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iab View Post
    Again. Does not make it art. And you can take your pity and put it with your ignorance of art.
    i was taught art is a communication of feeling and emotion from creator to audience in one of the traditional forms: music, sculpture, dance, theater, poetry, literature, film, plastics, architecture, etc.

    bicycles were not one of the forms covered. but, like a building (architecture) or a sculpture, a bicycle is a creation from an artist to or for an audience (me).

    i see some beatiful c&v bikes and see art. if you do not, that's ok...

    it's more conducive to write where you think someone is wrong rather than a one liner on ignorance. that does nothing to aid communication.

  13. #63
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    People hang photos of loved ones on their walls, and there's usually no argument there about them being art-- they're not. How has this devolved into a discussion of what's worthy to hang on walls?
    I was wondering the same thing. There are also plenty of museums with displays of machinery and locomotives and even bicycles, with no claim of them being art.

    But I suppose there's nothing unusual about a thread drifting off-topic.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Chombi's Avatar
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    Who's to say what's art or not.....Remember Yoko convinced John that a small black dot in the middle of a canvas was art. Impressed him enough to dump his wife for the horribly musically tone deaf "artist" and stay with her till the end...
    At least that's the way the story goes....

  15. #65
    Senior Member rootboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    ... How has this devolved into a discussion of what's worthy to hang on walls?
    Heh. Touche'. That's what the thread was about. In a way. Of course, what one decides is worthy to hang on one's wall is a highly personal choice. And I was struggling with the concept, voiced previously by some members, that a bike is not. Thought it might be interesting to discuss something besides nuts n' bolts. Yet, discussions of personal choices in this vein often degenerate into pissing matches. I should know better.

    OK....back to nuts n' bolts.

  16. #66
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing how this discussion is "off topic". Are we not discussing the merits of the bicycle as art? The or? in Rootboys title is an open invitation to discuss the bicycle as a tool to be ridden....or? in this case we ask can it also be seen as and displayed as art?

    This could all be solved if iab would just tell us all what art is

    I'm guessing it will be some Eurocentric pretentious claim that the "fine arts" (music, poetry, painting, sculpture and architecture) are somehow seperate from artisanal craft. A view that only appeared with the rise of the European middle class during the 18th century.

    For thousands of years prior to this though, art was (and still is) "artisans practicing a craft that may, through experience and aptitude, reach the expressive levels of an artist."

    ...and guess what? Bicycles fit quite nicely into that definition of art

  17. #67
    billy chuck eschlwc's Avatar
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    chombi, yoko rocks. she also 'created' a fine artist in his own right, sean.

    john's solo albums are great.

    and it wasn't a dot. it was an interactive art installation that led the viewer to read the simple message, "yes." as in, "yes, a finely crafted bicycle is art."

  18. #68
    AKA: Rusty Bitts pamaguahiker's Avatar
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    Rootboy, i actually snorted from laughing at some of your posts.

    My view, and as always...opinions are like A$$holes, everyone has one, we just don't want to see it or hear from it, but, i have always WANTED to be able to say, yea...that's my wall hanger or etc. But i just can't do it. If it doesn't have some utility for me. It would be better suited to someone else than I. I just sold a very nice looking "ghost bike" as my friends called it. It was a nicely Tig welded, Japanese made fixe, beautiful blend of white on white (on again, my opinion of being beautiful) and I used it for about 400 miles in the first year or so, then for 2 years...it just hung because...i liked it too much. I determined it was useless to do this and today, it exchanged hands into a new owner who is far younger, and far more likely to be zipping around on it at college than i would use it. It makes me happy to know it will be used immediately!

  19. #69
    Senior Member daihard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    People hang photos of loved ones on their walls, and there's usually no argument there about them being art-- they're not. How has this devolved into a discussion of what's worthy to hang on walls?
    They don't hang their loved ones themselves on the wall, do they?

    Seriously, though, I just believe in the purpose of things. Photos are there to be viewed and appreciated. Bicycles are there to be ridden. That's all.
    Badly-behaved cyclists are usually just cyclists with inadequate infrastructure. Or none at all. - Mikael Colville-Andersen

  20. #70
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobrabyte View Post
    For thousands of years prior to this though, art was (and still is) "artisans practicing a craft that may, through experience and aptitude, reach the expressive levels of an artist."

    citation?

  21. #71
    Senior Member due ruote's Avatar
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    Looks interesting, thanks.

  22. #72
    Senior Member Paramount1973's Avatar
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    I don't care what others do with their bikes. The ones that are ridable and hung up as art will be in stasis, so to speak, until they eventually pass out of current ownership and will end up in the hands of someone who will ride the bike.

  23. #73
    one life on two wheels cobrabyte's Avatar
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    due route, here's a link to a good outline

    http://www.rowan.edu/opney/Aesthetic...Universal.html

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixaix View Post
    I write this at a desk in the office of my shop, where I spend far more time than I do riding (or almost anything else). Directly above the monitor on which these words appear hangs a 1962 fillet-brazed Ephgrave track bike. Next to me is a Dahon Helios that I fold up and throw in the trunk of any car that gets dropped off locally so I can return to the shop without needing a lift. On the wall outside the office hang two Cinellis. In the shop itself are seven other ride-worthy vintage bikes and a 1901 Linwood which is unrideable. Of these bikes, I regularly ride two, though I've taken long rides on all but one of the rest.

    Being able to admire the bikes while working is part of what gets me through my day. If I'm stuck inside, at least I can look at them and think about what else is in my life besides work. I'm fortunate to have the space to display them and don't feel the need to justify owning them by riding them all a certain amount. Unlike cars (and people), they don't deteriorate over time, if they are kept in a warm dry place.

    Needless to say, I don't see anything wrong with having bikes you don't ride, or don't ride much. They are beautiful and evocative, which is enough justification for me.
    Attachment 343980
    I have bikes at work too. It helps to be the boss as there is a Colnago, two Masis, Tesch S-22, Apollo roadster, Medici, and a recently purchased C.N.C. around. three get ridden regularly. Others are waiting for tires to be glued.
    Upstairs in the bike room are a number more.
    Having bikes around keeps the world on perspective. And a easy excuse to go fetch a coffee.

  25. #75
    Fat Guy on a Little Bike KonAaron Snake's Avatar
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    There is only one true Art...


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